Descendants of Princes Sibirsky

[stanatar]

Hi, can onyone give me a clue on where to look?

My fathers family escaped from Russia in 1925 to Turkey. In Russia they lived north of Omsk (do not know the exact place) and had the title of Kniaz until the revolution.

My father and his family claims being the descendants of Kuchum Khan. In fact here in Turkey all our family members toombstones are marked with "From the Sons of Kuchum Khan".

During the last couple of years I have started to back-trace our family tree and can trace the roots from my fathers side back to 1720 where one our great grandfather is recorded as being the first person who assumed the title of Kniaz. However I have not been able to go further back and I am now trying to go the other way around and trace the descendants of Kuchum Khan in order to verify the family connection.

In my search I can only find that Kuchum Khan died in 1598 and that his four sons assumed the title of Princes Sibirsky. Later it is mentioned in several sources that Vasily Alekseyevich Sibirsky was one of the last descendants, being banished to Siberia where his decendants were degraded from tsarevich to kniaz.

Although this fits in with the story of my fathers family I would be greatfull if someone could help me with tracing the decendants of Kuchum Khan with names, dates, etc.

Selcuk Tanatar  

[David_Pritchard]

Kuchum, Khan of Siberia had eleven sons. The seventh son, Altanai is the progenitor of the Princes Sibirski line of the family and it was Altanai's second son, (Aleksei Alekseevich, d. 1686) who converted to Christianity and became Tsarevich of Siberia under Tsar Aleksei of Russia. Aleksei Alekseevich, Tsarevich of Siberia had four sons and one daughter: Grigorii Alekseevich (d. 1685) Vasilii Alekseevich (d. 1718), Dmitri Alekseevich (d. 1713), Aleksei Alekseevich (d. 1689) and Praskovaya Alekseevna. It was the son Vasilii Alekseevich who carried on the line, having three sons who were known as the Princes Sibirski.

David

[stanatar]

Dear David,
You cannot imagine how gratefull I am for this information - thank you.

I am especially thankfull for the information of Vasilii Alekseevich - as I have read that he was banished to Siberia and his descendants were degraded to Kniaz. As my fathers family assumed the title of Kniaz around 1720, I assume at this moment that Vasilii Alekseevich must be the connection to Kuchum. I do though not know whether other family members would have been given this title by other means.

However I have some question marks:

1. You mention that the three sons of Vasilii Alekseevich were known as the Princes Sibirsky - does this mean that they were not degraded to Kniaz or were they degraded but were only known as the Princes Sibirsky?  
2. My fathers family were muslims and Vasilii Alekseevich was a converted Christian. Would his descendants be allowed to convert back to muslims and still be allowed to keep the title of Kniaz?
3. Do you know the names of the sons of Vasilii Alekseevich and what happened to them?
4. It is also mentioned in wikipedia that Alp Arslan (one of the grandsons of Kuchum) were placed as a puppet khan of Kasimov (Alp Arslan 1614-1626, Sayyid Burhan 1626-1678 and Fatima Sultana (fem.) 1678-1681). Was Alp Arslan "puppeted" without a title of Princes Sibirsky?  

And lastly; I really would like to find as much information of the descendants - could you give me some hints on resources such as documentation, literature, etc. where I could continue my search without being tomuch burden on your time?

Best regards,

Selcuk

PS: I could send you my family tree if you should be interested (goes back to 1720)

[Mike]

Before David replies, a few remarks:
"Prince" and "kniaz" are synonyms, while "tzarevich" means "prince of blood", or "royal prince". After the death of Tsarevich Alexey, Peter I's son, the latter title was used only by descendants of former Caucasian and Tartar ruling dynasties. The Sibirsky family was degraded from "tzarevich" to "kniaz" in 1718, following its involvement in the Tsarevich Alexey's assumed conspiracy.

The Russian Biography Disctionary mentions two Princes Sibirsky:
- Vasiliy Feodorovich (grandson of Vasiliy Alexeevich), full general and later senator, b. 1761, d. ~1809;
- Alexander Alexandrovich (grandson of Vasiliy Feodorovich), renown archeologist and historian, b. 1828, d. 1879.

I very much doubt that former Muslims converted to Christianity were ever allowed to return to the Muslim faith. In fact, such an apostasy was considered a capital offense by Russian law.

[David_Pritchard]

The Tsarevichs Kazimirovsii descend from Ali, the eldest son of Kuchum Khan of Siberia. Ali's eldest son Alp-Arslan (died 1626) was the first Tsarevich Kazimirovskii. Alp-Arslan was succeded by his son Said-Burkhan (1624-1679) who was known as Vassily Araslanovich after converting to Christianity. With his wife Maria Nikiforovna, he had eight children: Feodor, Mihail, Yakov, Nikifor, Ivan, Semen, Evdokia and Domna.

David

[paats1]

Look on website royal ark  Dadiani  Anton living in Russia.  He is a descendant down to Prince Serge Dadyan today, and us through a natural son