Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence

[Dimitri]

This thread will combine all of the information about Pig's Meadow.   edited by Alixz 05/27/09




Is it possible that Alexis and Marie survived their families murder as their bodies have never been found?

[Jmentanko]

Well anything is possible.

Is it likely? I don't think so. It's hard to imagine the Bolsheviks going to great lengths to plan and carry out a murder and then simply forget or fail to kill two of them. It was such an important "mission" to these creeps and I'm sure they didn't take it lightly. There is also the testimony of the guards, etc.

There are still questions however. After all, anything is possible and we don't know where the bodies are.

Has any effort been made recently to find the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia?

[LisaDavidson]

Well anything is possible.

Is it likely? I don't think so. It's hard to imagine the Bolsheviks going to great lengths to plan and carry out a murder and then simply forget or fail to kill two of them. It was such an important "mission" to these creeps and I'm sure they didn't take it lightly. There is also the testimony of the guards, etc.

There are still questions however. After all, anything is possible and we don't know where the bodies are.

Has any effort been made recently to find the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia?

AFAIK, there were efforts made throughout the 1990's to find the two missing bodies where they were supposed to be. Nothing was found.

I think it very likely that the Bolsheviks lost two corpses. This is the most likely source of all the "survivor" rumors. Beyond this, everything seems speculative.

[Glebb]

According to what I've read, the Russian scientists believe that the missing skeletons are those of Alexei and Maria.

An American forensics expert believes that the missing female skeleton is that of Anastasia because all of the vertebrae of the skeletons found had reached full maturity by the time of the massacre.

[LisaDavidson]

And my opinion is - it will be impossible to know for certain which of the 4 girls went missing that night until we find the 4th. There has been the least suspicion it is Olga, and the most it was Anastasia. But, the claimants have pretty much concetrated on Alexis and Anastasia.

[Belochka]

I wonder when the survival myth will end?

Since fragments were found there is nothing unrealistic to suggest that two bodies may have actually disintegrated into minute fragments or were subsequently inadvertently disposed of during the various visitations to the burial site.

The site was severely tampered with on all occassions, starting with the process of disposal. When some fragments were found and removed by Sokolov in 1918, then I believe the physical contamination of the site commenced at that time. Are we really certain that others did not follow the same path of discovery before Avdonin did in 1979?

The amateur and crude digging techniques conducted by Avdonin and Kuchurov along with all the problems they encountered only compounded the serial disposal of forensic material.

The final exhumation procedure is known to have been handled without due care and skill. The uplift of material was compromised by procedural crudity.

Instead of preserving the site in situ as the situation should have commanded, precious material was continually being lost with each successive exposure. The site had lost its integrity completely, thereby jeopardizing any complete and true scientific analysis.

With all the site investigations conducted since 1918 how could one logically expect that all the skeletons would ever be preserved in their entirety?


 

[Belochka]

I have read the Knight paper closely. I have no argument with their methodology or the results obtained. The chain of command is not disputed.  

Is their any thought for the Knight team to now analyze all the individual female samples v Elizabeth's? To my mind this next phase would be the next logical step.

Surely we could expect compatibility with at least 4 of the samples using Elizabeth as the known control. If the parent samples are so contaminated then despite any amplification techniques, it would be impossible to determine whether any of the relics were Romanovs or their female retainers.

Could you please post the Gill paper here as well. I would like to compare the two methodologies, the actual profiles obtained and understand their discussion as they fully presented it to the world?


Thanks for your help.

[Belochka]

Thanks for the reference. Previously I only had a copy of the abstract.

It is difficult to alter one's mindset that such scientific errors could have come about from the very scientist who with Jeffreys first devized DNA profiling for forensic applications. However I do appreciate that after some 10 years, technology advances to such a degree that results ascertained in the past are always subject to peer scrutiny and may even become invalidated.

What we learn from the Stanford paper is that the original analysis has placed the origin Gill results into considerable doubt. There is lack of concurrence between the two laboratories. Because of the fundamental inability to reproduce Gill's results, even setting aside the questionable forensic processes, the absence of the all important chain of command, the real contention should now fundamentally be based (no pun intended) on the size of the DNA fragment originally extracted by Gill. It is because of the reasonable doubt now placed in our minds, as identified by the Stanford laboratory, and on this basis alone Gill's results should be set aside.

Assuming that we now accept the Stanford findings, then we are left with the essential question as to whose skeletal remains were discovered? We should also be reminded that the region was a Civil War zone.

Furthermore could this then explain why there have always been two skeletons missing? Could this site be not what it really seems?


With the burial of the relics in SPb, all the expense and the all important symbolism which has flowed from that ceremony can not now be undone.

While the world also waits for DNA authentication as to whether Alexander I is actually buried in SPb, then it can only be presumed that we will have to remain a little more patient until the scientific community can unify first concerning the more recent remains.

What we are then left with today is uncertainty on on side concerning the authenticity of a number of Romanov relics and closure on the other side. How very Russian!


 

[Reed]

Not being a scientist and having to accept the opinions and proofs given me by the experts, I can now understand why there are basically two definite viewpoints on the validity of the remains.  My question would be, was there not solid evidence found at the burial site to support the assumption that this was the site of the imperial families burial?  Such as metals, jewels, some fragment of cloth...anything that could be used as supporting evidence?  Or was the investigation so poorly handled that the site may have been contaminated as well??  

[Reed]

Where could one get a copy of the Knight paper??  Is there no documentation of what was found during the Soviet's investigation?  I still find it hard to believe that no other evidence was found except for the skeletons...something underneath one of them...etc.  Maybe I'm too ignorant of the method used to exhume the bodies.

[katieann]

I remember watching the live broadcast from Russia on the burial of the Imperial Family.  The 2 members of the family who remained unburied were given as Alexei and Marie.  Anastasia's remains were definitely interred along with those of her sisters and parents.  The servants remains' were buried first, then the remains of Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia were lowered into the grave.  Space was still left for the "bodies" of the other 2 children, which still haven't been found.  I also recall reading the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, gave a blood sample in order that his DNA be compared to the bones that were found.  He's a relative of Alexandra's through his mother - and also of Nicholas through his Greek/Danish heritage.  There was a bit in the papers here (I'm using my memory here and the dates are hazy) about the remains being identified as the Royal Family and also trashing the "Anna Anderson" story as Anastasia's remains were DEFINITELY identified.  There was also a long programme on the BBC about it which went into great detail about DNA testing and how the experts identified each of the bodies.  Anastasia was seemingly the shortest of the 4 girls and the youngest of course, and certain bone fusions would not have taken place because of her youth (again, I'm relying on my memory here) and her wisdom teeth would not have erupted either - that normally happens between the ages of 18 and 25.  The skeleton showed no signs of the tooth eruptions - whereas the others (Olga and Tatiana) were evident.  The programme categorically stated the remains were Anastasia's and Marie was named as the missing Grand Duchess.  How the bodies became missing I don't know, but if they were burned before the remains were interred in the forest is it possible that the heat could have destroyed the remains completely?  If the funeral pyre was kept burning with frequent infusions of gasoline would any remains of Marie and Alexei have survived the cremation at all?  I know it would depend on the heat generated, but it's something I've often wondered about and would like to know if I am way off base with this line of thinking, or if it is feasible.

[nerdycool]

I think I saw that same program. And I also think that it's Maria who's missing, not Anastasia. The fusion in the spine which was mentioned was the most interesting part for me. IF I remember correctly, they said it happened around the age of 18. Didn't they also say that the spaces between the vertebrae "shorten" after puberty? But I disagree about the wisdom teeth because not everyone develops them. My mom has her upper ones, but not lower... my dad didn't have any... brother had all four... I have 2 upper (if I have the lower ones, they haven't made their appearances yet). So it all depends on the person.

[katieann]

Yep, fusion of the spine was mentioned.  I thought the bit about the teeth was a long shot.  I'm now 44 and an xray (12 years ago) showed I don't have wisdom teeth at all!  However, I still think the missing GD IS Marie.  The forensic examination of the bones showed that one skeleton was considerably shorter than the other 3 women (Alexandra, Olga and Tatiana).  Marie was taller than Anastasia and 2 years older, so lack of bone fusion and wisdom teeth would probably point to Anastasia being the third GD found.

As to where the remains of the missing children are - I simply don't know.  I hope that one day they are found and placed alongside their parents, siblings and retainers - but it's a long shot.  We can but hope.

Incidentally, I saw a paper written by a Forensics expert (I think it was published in The Lancet) who said that a body will be almost totally cremated in 15 minutes at a temperature of over 1000 degrees.  All that would be left would be ash and some small bone fragments.  Given the ghoulish way the bodies were disposed of, is it possible that funeral pyre could have reached so hot a temperature and the 2 missing children were cremated beyond recognition??  I have absolutely no idea if this IS possible - so it's a genuine question - I'm just wondering if this could perhaps be one explanation for why both children's remains have never been found.

[rskkiya]

Katieanne,

Generally speaking a bonfire would not be able to produce such intense heat...so the bodies would have been to put it crudely charbroiled or seeredand  the remains might have been scattered or abandoned for any local carnivores to deal with.

I don't have an opinion as to whether Anastasia's or Marie's bones were found... there is evidence for both conclusions.
R.

[Forum Admin]

Katieanne,

Generally speaking a bonfire would not be able to produce such intense heat...so the bodies would have been to put it crudely charbroiled or seered.

Do not forget that Yurovsky reports:"I drove to Voikov, head of supply in the Urals, to get petrol or kerosene, sulphuric acid too (to disfigure the faces) and, besides that, spades. I commandeered ten carts without drivers from the prison. Everything was loaded on and we drove off."
Petrol or Kerosene will create a fire of MUCH more heat and intensity than an ordinary "bonfire".  It is very possible that the fire reached sufficient temperatures.  The main problem, IMO, is that it took too much petrol to burn everyone sufficiently, which is why they abandoned the effort.

Also, they said that they built a second fire over the remains of the first and then buried that to disguise what was going on. There may not have been much left.  Another possibility about the remains is this.  Woodash when soaked with water turns into Lye.  Given the remains of the first two were buried underneath quite a large amount of wood ash, every time it rained lye would have soaked the remains and made short work of what was left....
Again, my opinion, but I think it follows plausibly.