German occupation

[dmitri]

very well said FA

[Kurt Steiner]

Returning to the original topic again...

As we were saying. I have a silly doubt. Reading something about the fighting at Leningrad's frontline and some papers from my family, I've found some kind, for me, of a mistery.

One of the members of my family was a pilot with the I/Jagdgeschwader 54. He mentions in his diary that he served for some time in a place called Krasnogwardeisk, until he was injured in a dogfight and ended up in a hospital in that place -a city/village (?)- before he was sent back to Germany to recover.

I've tried to find Krasnogwardeisk on a map, but it seems that it's name now is Gatchina. Am I right?

Then, If I'm right, OK, let me ask something and please, be calm and don't get confused, because this is going to be a little mess. I'll try to clarify my point as I go.

If that Krasnogwardeisk is Gatchina and this Gatchina is the place that I think it is, it's the place where Catherine the Great granted to her favourite, count Orlov, who built a castle that Catherine bought again when Orlov died and gave to her son, the future Emperor Paul I. When Paul I became Tzar, Gatchina became an official residence of the Russian Emperors. Do you follow me? I hope so.

Then, if Krasnogwardeisk and that Gatchina are the same place, during WWI some medical hospitals in Gatchina were patronized by the IF, by the Tsar Nicholas II and his mother, the Dowager Empress of Russia, Maria Fedorovna, as well as his wife, the Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna and their daughters: the Grand Duchesses Anastasia, Tatiana, Olga, and Maria -IIRC, we have some threads about his issue.

My question is: Do we know what of those hospitals patronized by the IF were still running during WW2? I know it's a bit odd question, but I'm just curious about it.

Thanks in advance.

It is worth adding, methinks, that Gatchina is linked to the first steps of the history Russian aviation as Nesterov was trained at Gatchina airfield and made his first long-distance flight from Gatchina to Kiev in the 1900s or so, a time when the aviation industry was developing in Gatchina, eventually becoming one of the first centers of aviation and engine technology in Russia.

PS: It's my question clear enough? I hope so.

[dmitri]

This was indeed Gatchina. Of course all hospitals were taken over by the Soviet State once the Bolsheviks came to power. Imperial patronage had of course ceased with the abolition of Tsardom. Gatchina and surrounding areas were largely destroyed by the Nazi Germans. Certainly restoration on Gatchina Palace still continues over 60 years after the end of world war 2. It is interesting to see as unlike Pavlovsk which was also virtually destroyed, Gatchina is still undergoing major restoration. It was also the home of Alexander III and Maria Feodorovna and the childhood home of Nicholas II and his siblings.

[Kurt Steiner]

Glad to know! Time to fill some gasps, then!

[ChristineM]

During the Nazi occupation of WWII, for the entire period, virtually the entire -remaining - population of Pushkin (women, children and elderly men) was evacuated to Gatchina where they survived - living under canvas, during the winter too - on humble rations provided by Nazi field kitchens.   The food, rather soup, which was very sparce, was much more than the citizens of Leningrad could expect.

tsaria

[dmitri]

Yes it was indeed a truly wretched existence. It is so very hard to imagine having experienced a 'mild' winter at Gatchina.

[Nemos]

33 êèëîìåòð ýòî ñëó÷àéíî íå Òàèöû.
33 kilometer it is casual not Taisi.

Õîòÿ ïîõîæå è íà Êèðîâñê, Àëåêñàíäðèíî. 33 êèëîìåòð.
Though it is similar and to Kirovsk, Aleksandrino. 33 kilometer.

[Nemos]

Åñëè òàì 20 êì òî âîçìîæíî ýòî ïîñ¸ëîê Àëåêñàíäðîâêà.
If there 20 km that probably is settlement Aleksandrovka.

[Nemos]

Ïîñìîòðèòå íà ýòè ôîòî, åñòëè ó êîãî ôîòî äîìà íà Ïóøêèíñêîé ñî äâîðà äî âîåííîå.

Look at these photos, åñòëè at whom a photo of the house on Pushkin from a court yard up to military.





Ýòî òðîôåéíûé òàíê ÊÂ, èñïîëüçóåìûé ïîëèöåéñêèìè ÷àñòÿìè ÑÑ è íå òîëüêî.
It is the trophy tank KV used by police parts ÑÑ and not only.

Äîì Êó÷óìîâà íà÷àëî XX åñòü, ñêîðåå âñåãî äîëæíû áûòü è ôîòî ýòîãî.
House Kuzumova the beginning XX is, most likely should be and a photo of it.

[Nemos]

Îí âûãëÿäèò ñåé÷àñ òàê, íî ñêîðåå âñåãî ýòî ïîäîáèå òîãî ÷òî áûëî.
It looks now so, but most likely this similarity of that that was.

[Nemos]

Немного фото 4-й дивизии СС "Полицай", есть ли фото чинов дивизии в Пушкине.
It is a little photo of 4-th division СС "Policay", whether there is a photo of grades of a division in Pushkin.

http://pushkin-history.info/fotoalbom-old-1-/3703.html

Эта дивизия вместе с 269 пехотной захватывала Пушкин в 1941.
This division together with 269 infantry grasped Pushkin in 1941.

[Helen_Azar]

Interesting news about the German graves in front of the AP from Petrushka who posted this on another thread:

I've just come back from my second trip to St Petersburg and spent a day at Tsarskoye. The very day we were there they were excavating the little flower bed in front of the AP.  I have photos which I'll get up in the next couple of days. They were indeed excavating the graves and had removed four or five sets of human remains whilst we were there.  I ventured to talk to the burly russians conducting the dig (they certainly didn't give the impression of archeologists!) - I kept asking if the remains were SS and indeed as everyone has always suggested they are.  One of the diggers even brought over an 'Erkennungsmarke' (a German dog-tag) on which you could make out some sort of name or regiment and the very clear 'SS' runes.  It also stated it was a Feldgendarmerie - military police unit.  Erkennungsmarkes are designed to be broken in two once the wearer is dead, so that one half remains with the body and the other is sent to the regiment HQ or similar to be recorded.  The one that he showed me had been split.
Anyway, the guys doing the digging were pulling out bones all over the place and putting the remians in blue plastic sacks - you'll see in the photos when I get them up.  There were a number of skulls etc.  I don't know whether the digging was purely to clear the ground for something else or a genuine excavation but I will say there wasn't a huge amount of respect being shown to the remains  --  although considering what the Nazi's (partcularly the SS) did to Russia and indeed the palaces themselves, I can't say I felt much sorrow!

[dmitri]

Well who knows maybe the families will get the bones back.

[Robert_Hall]

I have the utmost respect for those who died in unform, no matter what side they fought on. I find it interesting, however, that when Soviet remains are dis-interred, the Moscow government raises all sorts of objections. When the Soviet dis-engagemnt from Eastern Europe was being negiotiated,  it was sacrosanct that  Red Army cemetary and memorials be protected  under the new regimes. Bones are just that- bones. whether imperial or common man [or woman] in uniform. Respect should be given to all who died, for whatever reason.  And Dmitry, do nor EVER tell me I need to read more.

[dmitri]

Reading is something if you are interested in a topic you continue for a lifetime. That is the key to learning.