Author Topic: German occupation  (Read 407337 times)

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David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2006, 12:31:50 AM »
Robert,
will this map: http://www.mapsofpa.com/18thcentury/1763homann.jpg change your believe about Louisiana?

There is a great difference between the 1763 French Colony of Louisiana and the 1803 French Colony of Louisiana (which is referred to as the Louisiana Purchase.

See this map for the size of the 1803 purchase: http://mrnussbaum.com/lapurchase.htm

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2006, 09:05:58 AM »
Robert, you keep referring to Pennsylvania Civil war time, it wasn't much differences between both sides (North and South). But, do you know any Frenchman's graves from the great lute of Louisiana, and graves from Englishman's chasing Washington? 

I am not sure if this is exactly what you mean here, but this is one example, something I mentioned earlier....


For example, in Princeton, near to where I live, a battle took place in 1777 between George Washington's troops and the British troops. Both American and British soldiers were killed in this battle. They were buried right there, in a mass grave. There is a plaque there now that acknowledges both British and American soldiers who lost their lives, and whose remains are still in that spot. They are not really honoring the enemy, they are just acknowledging what took place and reminding everyone that there are human remains buried there.



“…… In the memorial grave beyond you, those who fell in the battle of Princeton, both American and British buried, the historic portico in which you stand was re-erected here to mark the entrance to the tomb of these unknown soldiers of the revolution….”


« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 09:15:05 AM by Helen_A »

Offline Ortino

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2006, 10:03:38 AM »
Robert,
will this map: http://www.mapsofpa.com/18thcentury/1763homann.jpg change your believe about Louisiana?

Pennsylvania was never part of the Louisiana Purchase, only land west of the Mississippi River, nor ever in French hands. Secondly, it is a highly distorted map of the United States so you cannot go by it at all. Pennsylvania is practically the size of New Jersey on it! Even so, the color divisions are clear--yellow is French, green is British. Pennsylvania is entirely green. Thirdly, it is an 18th century map (1763), making it forty years before the Louisiana Purchase and twelve years before the American Revolution!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 10:23:55 AM by Ortino »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2006, 11:19:59 AM »
Thank you, Helen, Ortino & David for defending Penn. history. Vladm mau re-think his own research.
 As for the fascist VOLUNTEERS from other countries,  I never referred to them, but I suppose they deserve to lay in peace as well, unless their current governments wish to go to the expense of repatriating them.  My focus was on the common German soldier deserving the same respect as the Red Army soldier buried in Germany. There are no "real heros" in any war, only dead sons [and daughters]. I was not, for goodness sake, asking for a memorial to be raised for the SS guards at Auscwitz !
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2006, 11:20:40 AM »
As someone originally from Ohio, I can attest that Ohio and Western Pennsylvania were once French lands. Let us recall that the young George Washington had his first military combat against the French forts in Western Pennsyvania during the Seven Years War (French and Indian War).

See this French fortress named after the French Governor-General of Canada, Marquis du Quesne (now the City of Pittsburgh): http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Eusgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/frontierforts/73ftduquesne.jpg

See this French fortress named Fort la Riviere aux Boeufs in the present day County of Erie: http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Eusgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/frontierforts/90leboeufwaterford.jpg

See this French fortress named Fort Machault after Jean Baptiste Machault in the present day County of Venango:
http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Eusgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/frontierforts/92ftmachault.jpg

See this French fortress named Fort Presqu'Ile (now the City of Erie):
http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Eusgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/frontierforts/89oldfrenchft.jpg


David



Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2006, 11:26:54 AM »
Yes, David, but they were not part of the Louisiana Purchase, as you and others have  clearly pointed out.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2006, 01:09:57 PM »
The Hitlerite graves that I would like to see disinterred are those particularly close to Russian heritage monuments such as the Aleksander Palace. I strongly feel that their proximity to this and other historical buildings constitutes an ongoing act of Fascist valdalism.

David

David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2006, 01:47:09 PM »
Tkacheva N.M., Head, Restoration Department of
Pskov State United Museum-reserve, Member of St.Petersburg Artists' Union

Pskov Museum in the Years of Occupation


Pskov was occupied in two weeks after the invasion of the Hitler's Germany into the USSR. For this short period the majority of population was evacuated, including industries, hospitals, educational and children institutions, etc. In this kind of conditions the evacuation of museum collections, quite naturally, attracted minimum transport and other means, that is why major part of the great museum collection stayed in Pskov.

Pskov State United Historical Architectural and fine arts museum -reserve is one of the oldest museums of Russia. It was launched as Pskov theological archeology museum. After 1917 organizational changes took place and in 1930 Pskov already had 7 museums: Historical one, the Gallery, Natural Sciences, Socialist construction, Museum flat of V.I.Lenin, Museum - House of V.I.Lenin (House of "Iskra"), anti-religious museum in Troitsky Cathedral [1]Just before the war all the museums were united, but the system of accounting stayed the same and general inventory was not compiled..

At the beginning of the War museum was in a possession of one of the richest collections of archeology, numismatics, manuscripts and old printed books and documents, icon painting and other objects of church art, Russian and Western European paintings, graphics, fine sculpture and porcelain etc., natural science collection.

Up to the beginning of the 90-s the documents of the Operational Headquarters of Rosenberg and other German and Soviet documents related to looting and removal of cultural valuables were not accessible.

In Pskov museum the process of defining the damage caused in the period of occupation is even more complicated by the fact that during the War the majority of inventories of seven Pskov museum of the Soviet period were lost. But by studying pre-Revolutionary catalogues of the museum, the archival materials of 1920-s, and through thorough studying of art objects being taken away, as a result of analysis and systematization of revealed occupation codes, marks etc., and thanks to some findings done at the territory of the museum, a great amount of information was received. This information cleared out a lot in history of Pskov museum and it's collection and allowed to define the approximate number of ancient Russian art objects that were not returned to the museum after the World War II.

Later on the studying of secret documents allowed us to fill the gaps and to restore the whole picture of the museum history in 1941-1944, which was very complicated and unusual.

From the first days of occupation the Germans are being very active in stabilizing the life of the town under the new regime. The power of the town is exercised by the Military Field Headquarters (Commandant-Under Colonel Bolongaro Krevenna), Russian Town Hall headed by Burgermeister Vasily Cherepenkin and District Hall headed by Goroshansky. The positions in civil structure are occupied by the emigrants, arrived with the troops and by some Soviet citizens who stayed in the occupied territories. Civil services are also being created in he sphere of education and culture. Responsible persons are being nominated for ensuring order and cleanliness in the Library and in the Museum. These plenipotentiary representatives were two 19 years old men: son of Burgermeister Leonid Cherepenkin and Georgy Pomelenko.

In their reports military occupational authorities of Pskov are complaining about staff difficulties caused by the fact that "nearly all Pskov intelligencia has run away". The demand for staff was very high because German authorities were re-creating all necessary civil structures where heads and staff members should be Russians, for the implementation of their political aims.

David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2006, 01:49:35 PM »
Tkacheva N.M., Head, Restoration Department of
Pskov State United Museum-reserve, Member of St.Petersburg Artists' Union

Pskov Museum in the Years of Occupation
continued

Even a post office was functioning in Pskov. There were issued Pskov stamps with the images of the Pskov Coat of Arms, Troitsk Cathedral and the icon of "Mother of God of Chir". The sketches for the stamps were done by Pskov artist Grigory Aleksandrov-Gai. Pskov was housing Financial service and other services of the Northern group of troops, including Department on "preservation of cultural and art valuables" (down referred as CAV) [2], which was headed by Director and Curator of Historical Museum of Frankfurt-on-Mein, plenipotentiary representative on preservation of CAV of Headquarters of the Northern group of troops Count Ernst Otto zu Zolms-Laubach.

Zolms' activities were aimed at studying, accumulation and preservation of CAVs of Pskov and of the whole Northern Western region. Apart from the Department on preservation , on a permanent basis, zondercommand "Pskov" [3] and detachment "Ostland" were functioning in Pskov, dealing with all cultural and social matters of Pskov and the region. They were also dealing with "the planning of the joint scientific works of German and Soviet authors", and, if it was necessary, were looting and taking away the valuables. The question of CAV was dealt with also by SD and Kuensberg's group (MID and SS) [4]. The security coverage for all the valuables was provided by military Headquarters.

Count Zolms and his Department were a leading force in "preservation of CAV". Active interference of Count Zolms finally led to "mutual understanding" of all the services involved. It became possible only after departure of Kuensberg's group which made everybody very irritated. By the end of Summer of 1941, under the initiative and leadership of Count Zolms, in the building of the Historical museum located at Nekrasov Street, in Pogankin's Chambers, "Pogankin's museum" was formed from the collections of small museums. 65 years old sculptor Sobakin, who opened in 1941 Russian Arts and Industries college, participated in putting up the museums' exhibition, as well as the above mentioned artist Aleksandrov-Gai, who was teaching in Sobakin's school.

The Museum covered "Western European and Russian painting, historical objects, cloths, church paraphernalia, icons, books, etc. and also the remains of natural science collection and botanical materials".

The museum was open for public daily between 10.00 and 12.00. There was a small number of Russian staff , including Novgorod archeologist Vasily Ponomarev [5], who was the first burgermeister of the occupied Novgorod, then with the remains of Novgorod collections moved to Novgorod, in 1943 he was holding excavations of mounds found out by the troops of Vermacht in Luzhsk region of Leningrad area, was dealing with accounting and description of Pskov museums collections.

As a result of the occupation the fate of Pskov museum became closely related and interwoven with the fate of many other Russian museums. To untie these endless knots produced by the War, to find museum valuables, removed by the fascists not only from Pskov, but also from other Russian towns, it is necessary to understand what was happening in 1941-1944 in Pskov and in it's museum.

In 1941-1944 Pskov was the main store base for valuables, taken not only from Pskov region but also from Novgorod, Tikhvin, Pushkin, Pavlovsk, Gatchina, Peterhof. At the beginning of 1980s you still could see a heavy steel door with the mark "Tur No 30", and during archeological excavations the workers found a German telephone cable in the yard of the museum. The Germans were settling down thoroughly and were not in a hurry to take the valuables away. In the opposite, as one of the authorities of the German Headquarters Dr Zeiss were stressing out, "bearing in mind that Eastern regions should be after the war transformed into a studying space for the Germans, the form of which was not defined yet, the existing there objects of art shouldn't be looted and should stay in their places".

Hitler's order of the 1st of March 1942 proved the right of the Operational Headquarters of Rosenberg (RR), by that time presenting a centralized united service, to implement confiscation of valuables and preservation of them preventing their annihilation and damage.

RR Headquarters were located in Berlin, Head of RR Administration Utikal and his Deputy Ebeling were governing the branches of the Headquarters.

Special departments of Headquarters were also located in Berlin: "Fine Arts" (Dr.Scholz); "Archives" (Dr.Mommzen, Dr.Dulfer"); "Libraries "(Dr.Nay); "Ancient and Early History" (Prof. Nerling) and others.

The duties of the experts working in these Departments included participation in working groups and zonderkommand for studying collections of valuables, their estimation, definition of the objects to be sent to Germany, etc. The main working group "Ostland" (headed by Grissdorf and Dr.Nerling) of the Operational Headquarters of Reichsleiter Rosenberg (RR) was located in Riga.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2006, 01:50:42 PM »
The Hitlerite graves that I would like to see disinterred are those particularly close to Russian heritage monuments such as the Aleksander Palace. I strongly feel that their proximity to this and other historical buildings constitutes an ongoing act of Fascist valdalism.

David

But it is still part of its history, even though a distasteful part. I think that these graves should remain, so that the people remember what happened there.... They don't have to like what happened, just be aware of it and remember it. It is part of the town's history after all. But ultimately, it doesn't matter what any of us think about this... It will come down to what those who can actually make things happen decide.

David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2006, 01:51:00 PM »
Tkacheva N.M., Head, Restoration Department of
Pskov State United Museum-reserve, Member of St.Petersburg Artists' Union

Pskov Museum in the Years of Occupation continued

The representatives of "Ostland" and employees of RR Headquarters were periodically visiting Pskov with inspections, their reports contain important information about the state of valuables in various periods of the occupation and also about the facts of removing valuables.

In October 1941 they mention that Governor V.Cherepenkin "has already submitted to the Germans "some "valuable charts" in order "to preserve them for children of absent families". They also mentioned that "the remains of anti-religious exhibition in Troitskij cathedral and also books and documents of the House of Soviets were taken by SD for storage, the majority of them were already located in Revel and that several thousands more were supposed to go there as well". The materials of evangelical Lutheran community Jacobi, kept in the museum, were already sent to the Stuttgart institute of studying foreign countries [6]. In February 1942 representatives of the "Ostland" group fix a great number of violations including disappearance of many items of valuable china from the museum storage, "the whole series of passing museum valuables, both sales and various gifts". As the reporters said, the Commandant of the town de Bari was sure that "museum property was the trophy and only military Headquarters could distribute it in accordance to it's own understanding".

The specialists of the group are very unhappy about the state of cultural valuables in Pskov and they find it necessary to let the higher authorities know about it. During their meeting with de Bari they stress that "museum property, as a result of Count Zolms' activities , became a social property" and attract de Bari's attention to the fact that many facts revealed by them , under their opinion, are serious violations, which "first of all negatively impress local Russians". The group is giving recommendations about necessary steps to be taken in order to correct the above mentioned violations:

   1. An urgent effective defense of all funds of the museum and its storage located in the Gogol Street and in the so called "Golden chapel". It is stressed out that it is absolutely prohibited to take exhibits for gifts, rewards or sales.
   2. The Russian Town Hall should urgently sort out the storage located in the Gogol Street.
   3. To start inventory records of the objects, exhibited in the Pogankin museum.
   4. In the "Golden chapel" to accomplish, with the help of Russian priests, approximate inventory of icons.
   5. To ask de Bari to compile the list of rewards , sales and other passes, accomplished during his period, with indication of the receivers.
   6. Unconditional return of all objects being in hands of the officers.
   7. To close the Library in Pogankin house for any kind of loan.

De Bari is trying in his letters to deny many accusations of the Headquarters and in general, on his opinion, "the volume of damage is given too high and escalation of this history is discrediting German military power in the town". Nevertheless de Bari, in accordance to the recommendations, is forced to compile a list of officers who bought art objects in Pskov in the period of November 1941 and January 1942. As a result of this, in April 1942, Head of the "Ostland" group Dr. Wunder and Count Zolms, who were against these kind of violations, decided to take steps aimed at finding and returning the valuables, taken away. The problem of appropriation of cultural valuables was treated very seriously. The other example - a two months correspondence about "some Professor Zam", who, in accordance to the reports sent to Berlin, took cultural valuables from the Novgorod Kremlin into the unknown location. Finally it was found out that zondefuerer Zam was acting under the order of Headquarters of the 16th Army and all valuables, collected by him, were being kept in Pskov, in Pogankin museum.

But the problem of alienation looks different in the story of the butterflies collection of Pskov museum. The collection most probably originated from the Natural Sciences museum and was quite meaningful, because Head of Frankfurt-am-Mein administration, who wanted to receive it, and appropriate authorities were holding correspondence about it for at least half a year. On the 1st of June 1942, one of the leaders of Headquarters RR Dr. Zeiss answered with a categorical no. But already in October 1942 an insistent Oberburgermeister was getting a permission to receive the collection and it was taken away from the museum.

It is necessary to mention that it was a unique occasion. The numerous facts, as we saw it, were witnessing, that all the services, busy with "saving and preservation of cultural valuables", were implementing a planned methodical and centralized removal of valuables and also were obstructing annihilation and looting of CAV, acting in the interests of the Reich. Inevitable during the War attempts of personal enrichment , damaging and annihilation of historical and cultural monuments were preferably stopped.

The looting of the valuables was implemented even with the life risk for military troops, as, for example, during the "salvation" of the miracle icon of "the Lady of Tikhvin" [7]. Pskov was the last shelter of the famous icon in Russian land.

David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2006, 01:53:16 PM »
Tkacheva N.M., Head, Restoration Department of
Pskov State United Museum-reserve, Member of St.Petersburg Artists' Union

Pskov Museum in the Years of Occupation continued

In January 1942 a group of Gerlitz passed to Pskov the valuables taken in the town of Tikhvin, including the miracle icon of the Lady of Tikhvin. During three years of the stay in Pskov the icon was kept not even in the museum but in the armory of the Commandant's office. Every Sunday it was given to the Troitskij Cathedral for nine hours between 9.00 and 18.00. The expert of the RR Headquarters Dr.Esser was expressing his concerns that the valuable painting was suffering of transportation because of changes in temperature and humidity, despite the fact that it was defended by a layer of cellophane between the cover and painting and that it was kept in a glass box from which it was never taken. At the same time he stressed out the "impossibility of it's removal from the cult using because of political and propaganda reasons". The image of the icon was put into the Pskov guide book compiled by K.Zablozky, published in German in 1943.

In February 1942 a big party of the "cultural valuables, originated from Novgorod region", was delivered to Pskov. Before that the doors of so called "Gottorp Globe" were also taken to Pskov. These doors were sent from Gatchina straight to Riga in October 1942.

At the end of Summer 1943 Count Zolms took a trip to Novgorod in order to find and take to Pskov the remaining there cultural valuables. In the middle of 1943 the last inspection trips of the specialists from the "Ostland" group to Pskov took place. Later on all appropriate services in Pskov and the "Ostland" group were busy mainly with the problem of preparation of valuables to transportation and their evacuation to Germany. In October 1943 it was suggested that the new base for storage and distribution of CAV would be created in Western Prussia in addition to the one existing in Riga, because the situation in Riga was characterized as "not very stable". Due to shortage in rail carts and packing materials the removal of CAV was quite difficult from Minsk as well.

In February 1944 the Germans started an urgent evacuation of CAV from Pskov and the region. Head of the "Ostland" group Dr. Nerling ordered "under any conditions to remove the library of Pskov museum and church books from the State archive of Pskov". The steps are taken to remove the CAV from Pechora monastery , the "equipment" of museum in Pushkin Hills was taken as well.

In Riga the inventories were compiled and the packing was performed: the icons were sealed in twos by the pieces of wood which were nailed with thick nails. The prophylactic sealing was performed using flour paster. Specialist of the Louvre working group Dr.Roskamp "probed objects of art". The signs of this "probing" are still visible on many Pskov icons - these are rude shapeless cuts, damaging not only the authors paint layers but levkas as well.

Despite the urgency Riga museum was still keeping functioning the exhibition formed from the looted valuables, accompanied by photos and other explanation materials. The exhibition was demonstrating the "successful activities" of services, "busy with "saving CAV". On the 18th of May, 1944, 23 Pskov icons were delivered to Riga. The fate of these icons are still unknown.

As for two Pskov icons of the XVI century from the damaged by bombing German transport, they were "lost" in the territory of Daugavpils region of Latvija in 1944. Now they are kept in Daugavpils museum despite the fact that they have a definite occupation markings proving their belonging to the Pskov museum.

The objects of ancient Russian art , kept in Pskov, were marked right there. Despite various codes used to indicate from where the icon was taken, the principle of "Pskov inventory" was very simple: it had a general transparent enumeration of all icons taken away, which allowed to define the volume of the removed and not returned ones.

The marking of the valuables under the system of the "Ostland" group was performed in Riga. Paintings, graphics, sculpture, china, etc, belonging to various museums, including the Pskov one, were marked by the code of the Main working group. The lists of the MWG hardly contain information about the sources from where the valuables came, but by the indications of the old museum numbers , in details mentioned in the inventories, it was possible sometimes to define the origin. Unfortunately, we studied only a small number of MWG's lists.

David_Pritchard

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2006, 01:55:24 PM »
Tkacheva N.M., Head, Restoration Department of
Pskov State United Museum-reserve, Member of St.Petersburg Artists' Union

Pskov Museum in the Years of Occupation
continued

In the process of repatriation of the valuables, during the first years after the War, the majority of valuables, taken from the Pskov museum, returned to Pskov. But at least 1/3 of the valuables stayed outside Russia. Among them are the unique monuments of the icon "Our Lady's Birthday" with the stamps of Our Lady's living of the XVI century and "Our Lord's Appearance with the Iesseev Tree" of the XVI century, "Spisok" of the end of the XVIII century from the icon "Our Lady of Pskov and Pokrov", embroidered banner "Trinity" of 1630, the carved khoros of XIV-XV centuries, the Saint Gates of the Snetogorsk Monastery of XV century, a bronze bas-relief with the image of seven figures and other details of the famous doors of the church of Saint Nikolas of Torg, which were kept in the Museum. It also includes numerous archeological findings of X-XV centuries, including a stone pagan idol, two paintings of Konstantin Korovin, works of mark Shagal, "Still life" by Martiros Saryan, etc. The fate of these and many other valuables is unknown. About the others we know that they were not only saved but also that they were exhibited at the exhibitions. They include the famous miracle icon of the XVI-XVII centuries "Our Lady of Pskov and Pokrov", created using the plot "stories about the sights of the old Dorofej".

The function of a collection point of the CAV, given to the Pskov museum by the occupants, and, related to the shortage of necessary documentation, the wrong after war usage of the German codes made the process of identification and return more difficult . It also originated misunderstanding which led to relocation of many Pskov valuables into other museums of the country or kept them in the museums which were used as temporary storage for the returned to the USSR valuables.

Not only the Pskov museum, but also other museums of the country are missing their valuables which are returned to Russia a long time ago.

The situation, when the cultural valuables, removed by the fascists from one museum, in the process of repatriation were returned to other museums, could not be considered normal. Both from ethical and legal point of view. To admit that these kind of removals, caused by the actions of the occupants, are normal means to violate the principle of the integrity of the museums' collections, to question the right of museums and at the same time the main duty of the museums to provide the integrity of their collections.

The joint identification of mistakes, honest exchange of information between the museums and reconstruction of justice through passing the valuables to the museums from where they were removed by the occupants is as urgent and important task as a search for the valuables still not returned to Russia.

REMARKS

1. Historical, Gallery, Natural Sciences and Socialist Building were incorporated into a post-war museum (Pskov Local Lore museum), Anti-religious museum was closed because the Troitskij Cathedral became a functioning one. Both museums of Lenin became a part of the Central museum of Lenin of CC of CPSU.
2. CAV-terminology used in the documents of the Rosenberg's Headquarter.
3. Zondercommand - an autonomy detachment with special tasks.
4. Under the initiative of Ribbentrop the special battalion was created. It was headed by the SS major von Kuensberg and it's special groups were acting in various regions.
5. Ponomarev Vasilij Sergeevich, born in 1907, graduated from Leningrad State University in 1928-1929 (possibly the faculty of Natural sciences), scientific worker of the Novgorod museum, lived in the FRG after the war.
6. 70 items, the inventory was compiled by Dr. Kruzenshtern.
7. The town of Tikhvin was freed by the Soviet Army on the 9th of December of 1941

Offline vladm

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2006, 09:47:57 PM »
Frenchcreek, Girard, Ligonier, Morris all of these names - Pennsylvania cities. Now, I never said Pennsylvania, was not part of original USA, it was, so both sides (British and French) must be fought, on the same land and killed each other. I showed map, not to prove how Pennsylvania was small and Louisiana was big, but to show, borders of Louisiana, was way off (from current Pennsylvania  borders) before 1803 purchase.
Now, in my original statement, I described Pennsylvania was sliced (cut, divided), and Washington looted (robbed) neighboring states for Britt’s (French and Indian War 1754–1763), and after fought British troops from 1776.
But, point I am trying to make, this was a time, when English and French fought each other, and graveyard, is nothing but a memory of some events from some period, and keep us informed about events of this period (otherwise we forgetting our past).
This is why I am not against to have German memorial board, if we will try to select something pleasant from our history, down the road next generations, will have distorted picture about that period (unfortunately this process already begun for WWII).
If someone thinks graveyard board is wrong, I can reassure you, content of the board, can bring appropriate message, and the way, how modern society view events of the WWII (when we can remember that period), but memories about that period fading away, and we need to rush!

You can't avoid our past.
Virtual Pushkin / Tsarskoye Selo

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: German occupation
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2006, 01:34:16 PM »
This question about bodies in front of the AP - well there are bodies all over the place all around the palaces, in Sophia - who knows who they all are?  There are victims of the Revolution, the 'Revolutionary heroes' buried in the park, soldiers of both sides.  If you started to dig, who lknows what you find?  No, just bodies but other things - bad things left over from years when the palaces were in a military development zone.

Since we are on this subject I also wonder if the mass graves in front of the Cathedral in Peter and Paul Fortress are still there. Are tourists buying tickets and walking over the bodies of the Grand Dukes who were shot?  With all the rubles pouring in to Russia and St. Petersburg from tourism and oil can't they dig up the innocent victims there and do the right thing?  Perhaps they have and I don't know about it.

Bob