German occupation

[BobAtchison]

I forgot to post that years ago Marvin Lyons told me that the AP had an SS hospital in during WWII and this is why it received extra protection.  I believe he said he had pictures and accounts of the palaace when it was this hospital - also of Russians who came from Wetsern Europe as translators.  I have never seen these pictures.

All of this make sense. Kuchumov told me the heating system in parts of the palace still worked during the war and it was the only place where it did in Pushkin.  One could see why the Nazis would want it as a hospital then.  They used the parquet floors for heating, when these were gone they used other wood things.  It was also easy to get people in and out of the palace as the main rooms are on the ground floor.

As most of you know I have a bunch of photos of the palace just after the war, many of them ore on the site.  I have some new ones that show huge maps drawn on the walls of the New Study of the Pushkin area.  Ther are a bit hard to make out, but they show that this room was used for military planning of some kind.

Someday I hope we learn more about Russians who went in with the Nazis as translators and also about representatives of Alexandra's family who might have gone in with specififc knowledge of things hidden in the palace.

Oh, one more thing - there are plenty of French and other European volunteers who are buried around the AP.

[David_Pritchard]

I spoke to the curator of the Fortress about the bodies of the four grand dukes and she told me that they did not know where they were and that if they started digging under the stones they would encounter hundreds, maybe thousands of bodies of those executed in the years following the revolution. I think the museum staff was overwhelmed at the thought of disturbing the cobblestones and taking on such a massive ghoulish task.

David

[helenazar]

I spoke to the curator of the Fortress about the bodies of the four grand dukes and she told me that they did not know where they were and that if they started digging under the stones they would encounter hundreds, maybe thousands of bodies of those executed in the years following the revolution. I think the museum staff was overwhelmed at the thought of disturbing the cobblestones and taking on such a massive ghoulish task.

David

I can certainly understand that. What a horrible image....

[BobAtchison]

David:

That's exactly what some would like to do - is ignore the corpses all over St. Petersburg.  How can they accept one ruble from tourists to visit the Fortress with the remains of hundreds right under their feet....  Why doesn't Putin do something?

They spent and wasted so much money on the internment of the Imperial family and now they are going to spend thousands on Empress Marie's reburial.  It's disgusting.  They should do the right thing and exhume the hundreds of innocent victims before they have one more 'fun' ceremony for celebs and politicians to attend there.

Aslk for volunteers - I am sure they would come forward.  I can't accept what the curator said.

Bob

[Robert_Hall]

I was told much the same thing last year. Also, the regular floods that occur there have hastened the disintegration of the bodies, so there just may not be anything to disinter. A simple marker would be appropriate, no need to go to useless expense for a much of nameless whoevers.

[Douglas]

Lets just forget about digging up the bones of dead soldiers and others.  There would be no way to identify most of them anyway.

  They were more than likely buried in blankets or sheets.  Therefore their bodies would be nothing but a few bones by now.

Robert is correct...let them  remain undisturbed for eternity.

[BobAtchison]

I still want the courtyard in front of the Cathedral excavated.  There are three Grand Dukes there (four were shot and one body was taken away, right?) and who knows who else.  I don't know what the conditions are there, what remains have survived.  If there was a massacre in front of Independence Hall in Philadelphia and all the bodies were shoved into a masss grave there who a plaque or a monument be enough?  Would we allow hordes of tourists to walk over these mass graves?

If this were Germany and they were the victims of the Nazis lying in front of Reichstag they would have been dug up and a museum erected to the victims.  In France they dug up the victims of the Revolutiion buried near the Madeliene and did them what honors they could.

Bob

[Tania]

Thank you Bob ! Someone with understanding at last has offered just reason, and I can't agree more. Your point of allowing all understand perhaps makes headway. I don't think people would understand unless you put it in terms of where it is on home soil, and about the importance of giving proper significance. We would not dare allow anyone, relative, or tourist to walk over anyone's grave, so why say forget them. Thank you so very much for your kind input. It makes perfect sense. I still think the whole area should be cleared so there is no future debate as to what to do with 'old bones, and others'... The revolution was a massacre, and it is hallowed ground for the Russians


Tatiana+

[Robert_Hall]

The fact remains that there was no massacre in front of Independence Hall, and no Nazi vcitims in front of the Reishstag [there may well have Nazis, however,remember Hitler's bunker?] And not all victims of the French Revolution were dis-intered.  When that was done, it was not so long after the fact as well.
And- thousands of tourists do walk over graves in  cemetaries all over the world.
 If one demands finding 3 dead grand dukes, maybe one should offer to pay for the expense and disruption. Perhaps then, the authories would consider it.
 BTW, I was also told that the site has been blessed by Orthodox Church, so is effectively an Orthodox burial place. As most of us would know, the Orthodox Church is very much against digging up dead bodies. I still say a nice memorial plaque  is appropriate.

[BobAtchison]

I am sorry, I just don't agree...  It seems morally wrong to me.

[Tania]

Thank you again Bob. For me the pivitol word in all of this is 'morally', and I can assure you, the Orthodox Church is inclined to agree on this. We of the Russian Orthodox Faith, don't bury our dead and just forget about them. The Orthodox church in all its history are not inclined to forget our dead...this by far is not just an incidental bygone issue. I believe Russia is still putting herself together, and in time, this will be more than addressed, as well as that of the Nazi soldiers bodies there. This is obviously an internal Russian Government address, no matter how we may offer our thoughts or ideas, but again, I would say as you have Bob, for countless Russians inside Russia and outside, it is a moral issue, and I agree with you. Thanks again !

Tatiana+

[David_Pritchard]

I still want the courtyard in front of the Cathedral excavated.  There are three Grand Dukes there (four were shot and one body was taken away, right?) and who knows who else.  I don't know what the conditions are there, what remains have survived. 

By Courtyard, do you mean the little semi-courtyard between the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral and the Grand Ducal Burial Chamber or do you mean the very large Courtyard, almost a parade ground, between the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral and the Russian Mint? One area is reasonable to excavate, the other is an overwhelming task. I have read variously that the grand dukes were buried in front of the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral or near one of the prison bastions. If I were going to dispose of a large number of corpses, I think that the open ground outside of wall near the rear entrance of the fortress (facing the Artillery Museum) would be a good spot for a number of mass graves. It would be much easier to turn up sod than it would be to pull up cobblestones (have you ever done this, it is much harder than most would think?).

Is this the Courtyard to which you were referring?

[rgt9w]

Vladm,

I would love to see more picutres from the german occupation if you have more to share. Thank you for sharing the pictures you have already posted.

RGT9W

[Robert_Hall]

I was recently reading an article about dis-intering the tombs of the Rurik tsarevnas from a crypt below what used to be a convent in the Kremlin and transferring them to one of the cathedrals.  The authorities had a hard fight with the ROC in doing so. The forensic scientists are taking adavntage of the situation and making images of some of them whilst this is going on. Very intersting.  Makes much more sense than digging up a fortress in search of a few grand dukes which may never even be identified.

[helenazar]

Soviet soldiers coming into the courtyard of the Catherine Palace (24 January, 1944).