German occupation

[Kurt Steiner]

Kurt,
I was recently watching following movie, and was really disappointed, about how much I was right about volunteers, also, in some related file, it was described, quite few of the Spanyards joined SS to continue effort post 1943:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqpG6qrv0Q4
Most of the solders, understood about severe conditions for defenders of Leningrad, and realize blockade, was killing hundreds of thousands, understanding this post 2 years of fighting there decide to continue effort to defeat this city under German command.

Yes, around 250 volunteers joined the Waffen SS once the Legión Azul -Blue Legion- was sent home. Many of them were veterans of the División Azul indeed. They joined the so called Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101. formed in Klagenfurt, Austria, Sep 1944 when a company of spanish volunteers (former soldiers of 250. Infanterie-Division (División Azul)) was transferred into the Waffen-SS from the Heer.

It was sento to Pomerania Feb 1945 attached to SS Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier Division Wallonien. The remaining soldiers of the company took part in the battle of Berlin, attached to SS Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier Division Nordland, fighting very hard in the defense of Möritz Platz (by the Air Force and Propaganda ministries).

Why, after seeing by themselves the horrors of war, kept on fighting is one of those unsolved mysteries that the human souls hid inside. It shocked me so much the first time I read that I forgot that many ex-volunteers learnt the lesson and lost their trust in Franco's dictatorship.

Some people... well.

[Kurt Steiner]

In addition to the the 101 Spanische, you can find Spaniards in the following units:

1-)3ª Komp. I Bataillon, SS Rgt 70. (28 SS Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier Division "Wallonien").

2.) 5ª Komp. 59 SS Mountain Rgt, 24 SS Division "Karstjäger" under SS-Ustuf Ortiz.

3.) A section of the SS- Regiment 81. 29 Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "(Italienische Nr 1)". under SS-Oscha Camargo.

4.) Another 30 in a section fo the Btl./SS-Pol.Rgt. “Bozen” .

5.) Six Spaniards in the 1ª Komp. of the infamous 36 Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Dirlewanger".

Again, the human nature surprises me.

The only know portrait of one of those soldiers wearing the uniform of the W-SS



Ricardo Botet. Some day I'll tell you about him.

[Kurt Steiner]

One of those odd twist of life.

Christian Frederick von Schalburg was a Danish officer who joined the Waffen-SS. His mother was Russian, his father was Dane and he was born at St. Petersburg. After the revolution of 1917 his family fleds to Denmark. He joined the Danish army in 1925. He joins the Finnish side during the Winter War (1939-40) against the USSR. While being in Finland, Denmark is overrun by the Germans. He joins the Waffen SS in 1941 and command the unit made up by Danish volunteers, the "Freikorps Danmark". He is killed in action in 1942.


Von Schalburg with his son.

[dmitri]

I can see no reason whatsoever to place any memorials in Russia to the Nazi German barbarians who attacked and desecrated so much. Perhaps those who ask for such things should actually visit Russia and see for themselves the unforgivable destruction caused by these people. Apart from this the murders of 20 million people are a testimony to the disgusting nature of the attack. No civilised people destroy so much. Take a visit to Peterhof, Gatchina, Tsarskoe Selo and so many other places and you will soon find out the reality.

[Tania+]

Dimitri, as you expressed in your post of earlier, I did go to Russia and viewed the many places wherein destruction were wontonly caused to the Russian peoples. As well, we went to the mass grave sites where easily 4,000 peoples were buried together in many mounds throughout the area of their last resting place. When you see something like that it really stops you cold and you can't help but think what monstors these soldiers of the Third Reich were.  20 million people, and still today most of the world still knows nothing of their demise, or the terrible onslaught they traversed under the yoke of the barbaric Nazis. As I have stated in prior posts, Russia was not the only country that was pillaged, raped, slaughtered in this manner, but assuredly, it was the most catastrophic in the taking of everyday civilian lives, not to forget of course the children and elderly. How can any peoples, or governments forget the catastrophic murder of 20 million people ?

Thank you for your reminding our readers what the reality of the Russian peoples were on a daily basis during the occupation of those german barbarians.

Tatiana+

[Janet_W.]

Tania, thank you so much for your post. Our tour group visited memorials at both St. P and Kiev, and although I was visiting primarily to see the palaces of the Romanovs, visiting these memorials was extremely important and remains one of my most poignant memories of the tour.

[Tania+]

Janet, you know I strongly believe as Dimitri, that all citizens of every country should in their travels add to theor travel  plans, to visit the graves of those countless numbers of peoples caught up in the ire of warfare. Everyone wants to visit history, but few want to face the issues that brought everyday citizens their frustration of warefare or loss of life, just because they wanted to live in a free country. Those of us whom have children bring this important fact of history of many a given country so our children understand full well the sacrifices of others and the fact today that the live in a country safe from civil unrest, etc.

When I think of the history of Leningrand braved during the II WW or the brave citizens who braved those terrible early months of the start of the war in Russia facing daily starvation, inhuman cold, etc; , or to that brave city in Poland that was burned, bombed and remainder of a handful of citizens taken to the cocentration camps, I value my life and that of my family that much more.

I know every generation prays that there will never be another war, or that monstors cease to survive. But the reality is that wars continue, and monstors rear their heads more and more. That's why it is so very importanever to forgetnt never to forget these brave cities, citizens, and histories of civilizations. As long as we remind peoples everywhere , hopefully, even in remembering their brave lives on forums such as this will offer some solace to their memories, and lives lost. Thank you as well Janet ! God Bless.

Tatiana+

[Helen_Azar]

I can see no reason whatsoever to place any memorials in Russia to the Nazi German barbarians who attacked and desecrated so much. Perhaps those who ask for such things should actually visit Russia and see for themselves the unforgivable destruction caused by these people. Apart from this the murders of 20 million people are a testimony to the disgusting nature of the attack. No civilised people destroy so much. Take a visit to Peterhof, Gatchina, Tsarskoe Selo and so many other places and you will soon find out the reality.

I may be missing something here, but I don't think anyone suggested that the German soldiers were memorialized (as in "honored") on Russian soil. The only thing we had been discussing at some point was to have some sort of an acknowledgment about what happened on some specific spots at some points in history (as in the case of the area in front of the AP), instead of just pretending that it is a regular run-of-the-mill flower bed, etc... They could just have a plaque saying something like this: "On this spot there was a German graveyard in the 1940's and the remains of the German soldiers are still beneath your feet" or something like that... That's not a memorial, that's a simple acknowledgement of historical facts...  And it would be interesting for history buffs as well as tourists. I don't see anything at all wrong with that, but I think it's very dysfunctional to just pretend that nothing happened on a spot where a lot had happened and where human remains are still hanging around (not from so long ago either) ... 

[Tania+]

Per Dimitri's post as well others in regards to memorials in Russia due to Nazi Occupation that I offer my latest thoughts on this topic :

It was Russia whom suffered the most heinous of attacks and desecration, and was of course on home soil, not some distant other land. 20 million people killed cannot end up as a tidbit. It must be the main focus for all reading about any war torn event, as well where human suffering was incalculable !

It is well and fitting for any country to make blanket statement of what transpired on any given area, and or specific actual place in context to what the population itself endured whilst under seige. Russia above all countries should have every right in regards to the control issue on this type of memorials, if any.  Why should there be a flower bed for any occupier, when so many of their citizens, children to elderly never had any monument, let alone flowers to mark the spot of their last resting place. I think on the plaque it should state that the Nazis occupied the area, but were caught, or were shot for their heinous crimes to humanity. Now that's a definite statement of historical fact that allows those whom lived through the event, lost entire family members, but had the last satisfaction to state that at least the soldiers who were placed for burial at the given site, well, their bodies were thought enough of to bury, and yes they remain for all eternity, beneath all citizens of Russia and all visitors feet ! There in that way the real story does not get lost or people think that the Nazis got off without future food for thought. No memorial to Nazis ever nor to any victims of war, especially on their home soil !

Tatiana+

[Tania+]

Regarding my last post, I obviously hit some wrong key thus the strikeout on the post, but the poset is in full context of what my thoughts were. Kindly disregard the strike out on the post. Sorry for the difficulty. Thanks for understanding !

Tatiana+

[dmitri]

I for one felt totally and utterly disgusted and sickened when I saw the full extent of the Nazi German barbarian destruction in Russia - the graves that some wish to acknowledge were those of SS ... I wonder whether those who wish to do this really know the full extent of the total  evil these people committed? Susan Massie gives a very good account in her book on 'Pavlovsk' of some of the situation. These people should never be remembered. It is the brave people of Leningrad, now St.Petersburg, and elsewhere who should be remembered. I wonder whether those who wish to commemorate SS murderers can imagine atrocities on such an obscene scale? Hitler wanted to totally destroy St.Petersburg. I guess you have to go there to see what an immense loss for mankind that would have been. It is truly one of the most magnificent cities in the world. What sort of lunatic would ever wish to destroy it. How about commemmorating those who died trying to defend it and their families and country and a memorial to all of those who have brought back hope by restoring the things of beauty that belong to all the Russian people?

[Robert_Hall]

There are war graves all over the world. Winners and losers.  No one is defending the Nazis nor their actions.  It is simply a desire to respect the burial places of  men [and perhaps women] who died in uniform, in service to their country- however misguided that country may have been.  There are Soviet war cemetaries and memorials all over Eastern Europe, some under dispute now. It is a matter of respecting the dead, remembering, in a small way that they once lived.
 Dmitri, I have, like many others here, been to the palaces in  St.P. and I understand fully what happened.  The major loss, however, was to the people who suffered, sacrficed and died. How many tourists actually visit the Seige of Leningrad Memorial ? An exceptionally moving tribute to those who defended the city. A similiar memorial could be  in Berlin or any number of cities that were ravaged in war.

[Helen_Azar]

I for one felt totally and utterly disgusted and sickened when I saw the full extent of the Nazi German barbarian destruction in Russia - the graves that some wish to acknowledge were those of SS ... I wonder whether those who wish to do this really know the full extent of the total  evil these people committed? Susan Massie gives a very good account in her book on 'Pavlovsk' of some of the situation. These people should never be remembered. It is the brave people of Leningrad, now St.Petersburg, and elsewhere who should be remembered. I wonder whether those who wish to commemorate SS murderers can imagine atrocities on such an obscene scale? Hitler wanted to totally destroy St.Petersburg. I guess you have to go there to see what an immense loss for mankind that would have been. It is truly one of the most magnificent cities in the world. What sort of lunatic would ever wish to destroy it. How about commemmorating those who died trying to defend it and their families and country and a memorial to all of those who have brought back hope by restoring the things of beauty that belong to all the Russian people?

Ok, we're obviously speaking different languages here... I give up.

P.S. I have been to Russia (including Pushkin and St Petersburg) 5 times. 

P.P.S. My great-grand parents were killed by the invading Germans in Russia.

[Belochka]

... How about commemmorating those who died trying to defend it and their families and country ...

Dmitri there is already a huge memorial at Piskarevskaya, on the outskirts  of St. Petersburg on the Vyborg side. It is a mass grave to the unknown. Anyone visiting the vast cemetry can not help be affected by it. I certainly was knowing that some of my family members maybe lying below in the common grave.  Buried there are over 650,000 victims of the Blokade through starvation, including others were killed by air raids. When you approach the entrance there is an eternal flame flanked by two memorial buildings that display personal momentos of the fallen and the "road to life" which recognizes the route taken by the supply vechicles in an attempt to feed the city during 1941-2. In the other direction along the Ladoga lake the convoy of vehicles carried children to safety. Many of those vehicles (over 1000) carrying their precious cargo were also bombed and destroyed.

As you proceed further into the park memorial you come to a huge statue "Mother of Russia". On the wall are inscribed the powerful words words of one survivor, Olga Bergholts:

"Here lie Leningraders.
Here lie Leningrad citizens - men, women, children.
Beside them lie Red Army soldiers.
They defended you with their lives ...
You who look at these stones shall know
No one is forgotten, nothing is forgotten."

My father was part of that only to be taken prisoner by the nazis and transported to Germany as a forced laborer (Ost arbeiter).
My mother ended up in Dachau.
Most of my parent's families did not survive.
I can only pay my respects to the fallen when I visit the city of my forefathers.

Indeed none of us can ever forget but we as the next generation can be mature enough not to hate the unknown and forgive the mistakes of the past and move on.

Margarita Nelipa

[Helen_Azar]

I think dmitri keeps confusing the words "honor" and "forgive" with the word "acknowledge", which has a totally different meaning from the first two...