German occupation

[Robert_Hall]

Bigotry and intolerance were hallmarks of the Nazis. They are obviously raising their ugly heads here as well. Of perhaps a slightly different ilk, but the same nonetheless. Hope you enjoy your sanctimoniousness.
 Perhaps it is time for this thread to be shut down ?

[dmitri]

I second that. Let's shut down this thread as soon as possible as it seems to be a secret haven for neo-nazis and their fellow travellers.

[Robert_Hall]

dmitry, your remarks are  uncalled for and extremely insulting. Not one person in this discussion has said anything in support of Nazis.  I used to enjoy your comments, but now I just find them offensive and intolerant.

[lori_c]

Once again, you are not understanding my meaning at all. By pretending that nothing happened on that spot, you are in fact, "forgetting".  I say, acknowledge the fact that something happened there, the palace was occupied by the Germans, they had set up a graveyard in front of the palace where they buried their dead, etc. It is part of the history of Pushkin and part of Russian history. Why ignore that and pretend that nothing happened there and that the flower bed is just a flower bed? Again: "acknowledge" does not equal "honor" or "forgive and forget", you are totally misunderstanding the meaning if this.

To me, ignoring historical facts (not acknowledging them) is, to a much lesser degree of course, analoguos to planting a lovely garden where the death camps used to stand and pretending nothing happened there. By keeping artifacts from these camps , thus acknowledging they existed - instead of ignoring them - we are not "honoring" these death camps, we are confronting history, and in fact, as much as is in our power, hoping we will learn from history... The fact that the Germans occupied Pushkin and their graves are still beneath the ground in front of the AP is part of the palace's, the town's and the country's history, and has to be acknowledged rather than ignored. History should never be ignored or rewritten, no matter how unpleasant.

Absolutely.  After that horrible time in history, survivors and many others fought to be sure that we never forget....... Lest we should forget or it will happen again.  How does the saying go, Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it?  something along those lines.
I agree that confronting it is part of healing.  And learning for the future.

[Tania+]

Lori, no truer words can be stated ! If we do not confront our past, we have no future. We may go through many difficulties, sorrows, and anguish caused from many instances of life and persons. We learn to forgive, but as human beings, we must never forget. Our very defenses, as well as our survival is based on this alone. Through the years I have worked personally with many survivors of varying types of global trauma. These basic understandings are what allow them to move forward and get on with life. Thanks Lori for your contribution and sincere thoughts.

Tatiana+

[Robert_Hall]

"Forgiveness" seems a rare commodity on this thread.
 After all, the sons do not bear the sins of their fathers,  but they are right to at least remember them.

[lori_c]

"Forgivenes" is definitely something one learns to do.  Some never achieve that.  But as for forgeting, the Holocaust survior Simon Weisenthal fought very very hard,  along with countless others to assure that NOBODY ever forgot that horrible tragedy and who was behind it.  So that the world would never let it happen again. Because it could.   It's a testament to all those who fought to keep this in the pulic consiousness of the world yesterdat, today and for the future that any monument should stand.  Not as praise, but as rememberance of  one of the darkest era's in our world's history. Lest we forget.........

[dmitri]

Precisely Lori. You remember the victims and not the evil murderers. Everybody knows of the crimes. You don't honour murderers though.

[Tania+]

Dmitri, your sentiments were understood from the first time you posted. You are 100% correct, nobody needs to offer any remberances to the Nazi murders, for they were far from honorable. We must continue to make sure that all human hearts know where evil dwells, and what evil people do. Never is too soon to forget. We all must keep vigilent against evil murderers.

Tatiana+

[ChristineM]

There are corpses of the German and Spanish occupiers ALL over the Alexander Park.   The flower beds beneath the Granite Terrace in the Catherine Park probably contain far more remains than the circle in front of the Alexander Palace.   To mark the graves of these young men - fathers, sons and brothers is impossible.   The fact that the two major burial sites are planted with flowers should suffice - that's nature and natural.

It easy enough for those of us who - and whose parents and grandparents - have never found themselves in the same position of the people of Pushkin and the Leningrad Oblast, to be sanctimonious.   Visit the City Museum in Pushkin and see what these people had to endure - then think twice.   Talk to the few remaining survivors, particularly those of the siege  - and have regard for THEIR feelings.   

Those who write that these were ordinary German boys are quite right.    But the atrocities they perpetrated were totally wrong.   In life there are usually two options - one of which is to refuse to obey to commit barbarities and to remain true to oneself.   Yes, and face the consequences.   Those who died during their occupation of Russia did face their consequences in the long - or not so long - run.

In terms of understanding what really happened during the WWII Nazi advance and occupation of Russia, perhaps a bit more reading on that subject and a bit more research with those who suffered first hand, should be done before condemning those who have strong feelings on the subject.

tsaria   
 

[dmitri]

Amen

[Tania+]

Thank you so very much Tsaria. Anyone who has read the long history of Russia under Nazi occupation, would know that the struggle of the Russian people, to stay alive from moment to moment was a tortuious one. Those whose family members went through the occupation and seige would understand even more. Those who lost family, friends, know that much more. Those who escaped the death camps, will tell you even more !

It is an honor and pleasure to have you on this forum. Your breadth and understanding of Russian history, is always right and allows all readers an objective understanding of what actually transpired. Would that so many more would take the time to at least read, study history before they make condeming remarks on others. I always welcome and enjoy what you offer !

As you so stated, the atrocities these 'ordinary German boys' perpetrated were totally wrong. They commited sadistic and terrible barbarities to the citizens of Russia, and that will never be forgot by the Russian people. The feelings of the Russian people matter more than we will ever realize. Again though it shows how strong and resilient they are, and continue today to make sure that Nazis never again rear their terrible flag or actions again. Again Tsaria, thank you ! and as Dmitri said it so well,

"Amen" !

Tatiana+

[Arleen]

My own personal feelings are that acts of history should NEVER be forgotten....no matter how horrible.  People should always be able to know what happened in an area,  even in a small way.   A sign explaining what happened would do, sometimes a big memorial is "too much" if you know what I mean.  But it should never be forgotten!

I grew up in Manilla right after WW II and the horrible acts of the Japanese became a part of all of us who lived there.  War begets horror on all sides of  it.  Look at the horrors being committed in Iraqi, by everyone!  That should never be forgotten either. 

Tsaria, I am so glad you are back I always NEED your always fair and balanced opinions.  Besides all of the first hand knowledge you have from your many travels to the area and all of the wonderful things you have done to help the people of TS.

This is a dicey subject......

Arleen

[Kurt Steiner]

In life there are usually two options - one of which is to refuse to obey to commit barbarities and to remain true to oneself.   Yes, and face the consequences.   Those who died during their occupation of Russia did face their consequences in the long - or not so long - run.

Some people did. And faced the results of their actions.

As captain Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche did, for instance. He was a career army officer who served on the Eastern Front and witnessed the mass execution of Jews in Dubno in 1942. He declared thereafter that there were only 3 ways for an officer to maintain his honour: by dying in combat, by deserting or by revolitng. He was recruited in the conspiracy against Hitler by colonel Claus von Stauffenberg to assesinate Hitler.

Von dem Bussche volunteered to give his life in an attempt (November 1943) which involved blowing himself up with Hitler. His plan was to model in an army uniform before Hitler and set off two hand grenades conceladed in his great coat. However, the plan failed and, later on, von dem Bussche got severely wounded by a mortar shell. He loses a leg. He died in 1993.

We could, for instance, mention colonel Baron Wessel Freiherr von Freytag-Loringhoven (1899-1944) who was initially fond of Hitler's program for Germany, but he was shocked by by the Bight of the Long Knives massacre and joined the conspiracy against Hitler. In July 1944 he gave the detonator charge and explosives used by von Stauffenberg in his attempt on 20th July. He commited suicide to avoid being captured by the Gestapo.

And the list goes on and on.

[dmitri]

true there were a small number who did try to resist .. it is a touch off topic though as the thread is about the german occupation of Puskhin