German occupation

[Kurt Steiner]

Dear Dmitri,

I think you forget that Stalin made a pact with Hitler which left the western Poland to Germany and Eastern Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland to Soviet Union. At the same time as Hitler was invading western Poland, Soviet Union was invading eastern Poland, Baltic States and Finland(with Finland "Great Soviet Union" did not managed that well).
In my point of view Soviet Union is as quilty as Germany of starting the war by making a pact of dividing the regions mentioned above.
It is well known that Soviet Union lost lots of lives during the war. But Soviet Union was doing exactly same as Germany was doing. And perhaps if Stalin would of care about his peolpe/soldiers at all,  much less would of loose their lives. For me the soviet regime was as evil as nazi regime perhaps even worse.

You got it.

As a former German soldier said once: what is communism? The non-aryan mother of Nazism. So simple, so short.

Sometimes I wonder if people knows about Katyn. But, of course, this is not the thread and we're out of topic, anyway.

[dmitri]

Katyn Wood I know only too well about and really it was appalling but not at all to be compared with the enormous millions of people slaughtered by the Nazi German regime, ever. 

[dmitri]

and to compare communism to a non-aryan mother of nazism shows complete  and utter ignorance and to say the least a complete lack of historical knowledge and sensitivity to the millions and millions who were massacred ... think about that before you come up with revisionist historical nonsense ... war criminals are never honoured anywhere ... there is no place whatsoever for any mention, in the beautiful surrounds of the Alexander Palace. people thay the German people are deeply ashamed of .. the Russians have very, very long memories ... don't expect them to stomach the gross insult of any sort of mention on their soil of peoples who committed acts of the most disgusting barbarian behaviour ... remember the victims - that is what decent people do ... the crimes are well known - any foreign visitor to Russia who visits places s shown photographic evidence and told about what happened ... that is all that any human requires - I saw people visibly upset at the sheer horror of it all - Russians know what happened - don't expect any form of plinth to acknowledge what happened - it would be in complete bad taste to say the very least

[antti]

And what about the millions slaughtered, send to prison camps or forced to flee they countries by soviet union in eastern europe, baltic states or Finland?  
And what is even more horrible is that soviet union was doing the same to it`s own people in the name of revolution.  I say disgusting. " Peace loving Soviet Union"..ö. up my ....!
Because this is so far from the topic I won`t personally continue this thred.

[dmitri]

good because you are way off base

[ChristineM]

Robert, I understand precisely what you say, but it is always possible to say 'No'.   Inevitably there are consequences as a result of refusing to obey orders.   These young men were on a high.   They had murdered and scorched their way from Berlin and were at the very boundary of the greatest prize of all - Leningrad.   They were drunk with success.   They were brutal bullies for the entire period of the occupation.   They starved people and they slaughtered.    In retreat, they were merciless.   Why should they been shown any kind of consideration now?     

(Robert - Fighting men were by far in the majority.   Their commanders were a minority and usually kept well back from the frontline.   In this country conscientious objectors were imprisoned for the length of the war (World War II).   All of the people who lived around Belsen, Auschwitz, Buchenwald and etc. when the war was over, said they knew nothing of the atrocities which had been perpetrated in these places.     I hate to even associate this question with another thread, but what would you have done?)

In so far as Pushkin/Tsarskoe Selo is concerned, I have already pointed out - and Helen must know - there are Nazi graves all over the Catherine and Alexander Parks as well as the Babalovsky Park, around Alexandrovskoye, the Tikhvin cemetery - thousands of them and I could go on.   The largest communal grave lies beneath the Granite Terrace of the Catherine Park.   Where do you begin and where do you end with this proposal of marking German war dead?   As you may be aware, there is a large black marble memorial to the Jews who suffered dreadfully in Pushkin during the occupation on the left hand side of Dvortsovskaya Ulitsa.   These people were natives of Pushkin.   We have their memories to honour.

Both Hitler and Stalin were monsters.   Within the last ten years approximately 350,000 skulls of Buddhist monks were found in the far reaches of Siberia - all murdered on the orders of Stalin.   Hitler's war in Europe lasted little more than six years.   Stalin and his massacre of the kulags, his artficially created famine and his purges lasted almost thirty years.   In terms of those murdered the working estimated number killed on or through the orders of Stalin is in excess of 80 million - and counting.

tsaria     

[dmitri]

yes Tsaria this was truly awful as well .. he was a monster ... when will man ever learn?

[Tania+]

It is morally important that any and all victims never be forgot. Surely those murdered under the Stalinist regeime were horrific in numbers, but again, the point of focus here on this posting is entitled "German occupation". We are after addressing that which were monstrous acts of aggression and mass murder under German Occupaton. It is important when addressing the historical understandings of such enormity that it is not looked at as, 'well these things happen in war'....
We are talking about the hearts and minds of millions of human beings who were alive with hopes and dreams like you and i, who were maligned and butchered just because they were of a certain religion or ethnicity.

We who are able to read, study and respond effectively in regards to such barbarity should never allow the memory of all who died to be thrown to the dust bins or to stay in the shadows of time. Tsaria and Dmitri thank you so very much for standing firm and continuing to allow other readers a real understanding of this immense topic of the "german occupation'.
Russia and her peoples has every right to keep echoing the historical loss of the millions upon millions of loss of life she endured. More than any other country, her loss is more than significant.

While it is true that Russia in the early years did sign a pact with Germany, as Dmitri and Tsaria have pointed out, the atrocities and the barbarity paled in comparison when when goes in to direct historical content as to the mind set of the Nazi's in the take over of countries and peoples. In any event of such enormity, and in good conscience, no human heart can and should ever sanction murder of any understandings. The taking of just one human being is impossible. The destruct and genocide of a people's more than an grevious error. As a just reminder, in terms of what the German occupation offered, the end hopefully was offered in holding the tribunal for War Crimes, so that the world would never again allow such criminal acts. The question remains still remains however today, of who is really listening, and who really has read history and will make sure of the chldren of today and tomorrow will make sure the Hitler's and Stalin's of yesterday will no longer be tolerated, nor be allowed to live.

Please what ever you do, and especially in regards to this topic, with your last ounce of freedom, continue to make sure that the truth of what the Nazi German occupation offered any human being is not forgot. That's the least we can offer the world in the names of all who perished under Nazi Occupation !

Tatiana+

[Mari]

Well. I personally think the RUSSIAN People will decide if they want to dwell on Victims of the War or... somehow...anyway they can... make peace with the past.   I wish them well whatever they decide!!!!   There have been many points of interest brought up ...I personally will read more Russian History and see what they suffered and also see what how they behaved when they invaded other Countries. As a History Major ..... Thank you all for a very interesting and somewhat heated Discussion.

[dmitri]

You're very welcome Mari. Just remember the Nazi German invasion of the Soviet Union is a completely separate issue to the subsequent Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe. Look at them in isolation and only then are you are able to compare them. 

[dmitri]

By the way I meant to add that huge remembrance services occur in late January every year in St.Petersburg to remember the victims of the seige of Leningrad, now St.Petersburg. The numbers are not dwindling.

[Tania+]

The numbers will Never dwindle ! Can we forget them, can we forget 1915, can we forget Dafour, can we forget anywhere in the world wherein victims under seige are murdered without conscience ? Would you or anyone trade places with those whose unfortunate stance was to live through such utter travesty and injustices ? We must never forget. Keep the candlle burning brightly for one, for all ! God remember them forever. Read all you can and never stop remembering the lives of the millions who need us very much in the world of today and tomorrow to work on every moment that we can live and dwell in peace. Amen.
You are right Mari, peace should be the focus of all peoples and nations. Let it begin and stay and live within all our hearts.

Tatiana+

[Kurt Steiner]

My dear Dmitri,

you're interpreting of my words badly, poetically speaking. There is no revisionism im them at alll. To start with. So, beware the adjectives next time, please. The "non-aryan mother and so on" were made by a German soldier, former Communist sympathizer by the way, who ended being executed at Torgau because of his anti nazi ideas. So, if he said that, perhaps he knew a bit about what he was talking. But of course, he was a German...

Indeed, USSR suffered a lot in the Nazi hands, as well with other countries did, but this would be another topic. And talking about memories. It's good to remember the suffering of the USSR, but it's comical if not cynical, to forget that, while suffering, the USSR has its own criminals and, it its turn, even before 1941, Stalin repressed the conquered countries by the USSR with brutallity, as mentioned by myself above. Nothing lessens the guitly of those Nazi genocide, but to extend the blame to a whole nation is so utterly stupid that I can only pity those poor people that commit this silly mistake. And bearing in mind the past, it's quite 'funny' to look on the crimes of the rest of the world and shut up about the own crimes.

Anyway, that's another topic. So, go on with this, I'm over.

Katyn, by sheer weight of numbers, nothing to compare with the 6 millions of Jews exterminated in the KZ. At least, for the statistics. But to gass 6 millions people seems to me as hearthless as to execute 25.000 men firing at point blank on the back of their heads and to make vanish another 15.000. No regime is worth any single murder.

and to compare communism to a non-aryan mother of nazism shows complete  and utter ignorance and to say the least a complete lack of historical knowledge and sensitivity to the millions and millions who were massacred ... think about that before you come up with revisionist historical nonsense ... war criminals are never honoured anywhere ... there is no place whatsoever for any mention, in the beautiful surrounds of the Alexander Palace. people thay the German people are deeply ashamed of .. the Russians have very, very long memories ... don't expect them to stomach the gross insult of any sort of mention on their soil of peoples who committed acts of the most disgusting barbarian behaviour ... remember the victims - that is what decent people do ... the crimes are well known - any foreign visitor to Russia who visits places s shown photographic evidence and told about what happened ... that is all that any human requires - I saw people visibly upset at the sheer horror of it all - Russians know what happened - don't expect any form of plinth to acknowledge what happened - it would be in complete bad taste to say the very least

[ChristineM]

The Jewish genocide and the Katyn massacres are vast subjects in their own right and this is not the appropriate place to discuss either.   

Comparison is odious.

The subject of this thread is the German occupation of the town of Pushkin - and its ramifications.   Its better that we stick to this topic.

tsaria

[dmitri]

I agree Tsaria entirely.