German occupation

[Forum Admin]

I endorse Tsaria's latest request.
FA

[dmitri]

Thanks FA

[Kurt Steiner]

The Jewish genocide and the Katyn massacres are vast subjects in their own right and this is not the appropriate place to discuss either.   

I fully agree.

Comparison is odious.

I agree again.

The subject of this thread is the German occupation of the town of Pushkin - and its ramifications.   Its better that we stick to this topic.

tsaria

As I said when I finished my last post, I absolutely agree.

PD: Just in case, even if I mentioned it before. A member of the German branch of my family was executed by the nazis because he didn't join the NSDAP. Part of the German branch of my family suffered badly towards the end of WW2 at the hands of some uncontrolled members of the Red Army. As you can imagine, I have little respect for any of those two packs.

Sorry for the disgression. I just wanted to clarify this point, just in case. Let's carry on with the thread, please.

[dmitri]

I doubt there is any point whatsoever given your previous comments. 

[Robert_Hall]

Since dmitri and tania are the  only arbiters of truth here,  I leave it to them.  It is difficult to discuss with cloesd, bigoted, intolerant minds.

[dmitri]

how very exciting for you Robert ... do some reading ... you might be enlightend

[Kurt Steiner]

Dmitri, I have a little doubt about your last comment about me... If you're so kind to explain it to me by PM, to avoid getting this thread more and more confused, I'll be helpful. Just a comment. If you're suggesting that I'm a nazi, don't bother to PM. I can tell you, if that's the case, that you're awfully wrong.

It's funny that you suggest Robert to read more. Very funny

After all, the sons do not bear the sins of their fathers,  but they are right to at least remember them.

Amen.

[Kurt Steiner]

Some bits of information.



I think this is a palace at Pokroskaya, which was the headquarters of the Blue Division during its time at the front of Leningrad

To put an end to this long parenthesis that was opened six pages ago...

Anyone can identify this palace, please? I can only say that it was place at Pokroskaya, I'm afraid. Furthermore, can anyone tell me if it has been restored? Does it remains in that sad shape?

[ChristineM]

The name 'Pokrovskoye' is a common village name throughout Russia.   Rasputin came from the village of Pokrovskoye, Tobolsk region.    I think there is every chance there will be a Pokrovskoye village in the Leningrad oblast probably developed around the estate house photographed above.   Unfortunately the entire area is peppered with former manor houses in such delapidated state - most much worse than that shown above.   

Those within a reasonable travelling distance of St Petersburg - up to 200 kilometres, are being sought out by wealthy businessmen who are taking them over to restore.   They are being allowed to redevelop the houses on the basis that the exterior is returned to as close to its original as possible.   If I recall correctly, irrespective of how much spent on the renovations, they are not allowed to hold title to the prorpery.   I know of two such manor houses just outside Pavlovsk, ravaged during the Nazi occupation, both of which have  been returned to their former glory on the exterior while the interiors are cutting edge modernity.   One  belongs to Schostakovich's son and his neighbour,, my friend, is the greatest benefactor in the north of Russia.

tsaria

[Kurt Steiner]

The name 'Pokrovskoye' is a common village name throughout Russia.   Rasputin came from the village of Pokrovskoye, Tobolsk region.    I think there is every chance there will be a Pokrovskoye village in the Leningrad oblast probably developed around the estate house photographed above.

Interesting. So. 'Pokrovskoye' is a common name for a village -like Springfield, then (excuse me the joke, please...)-. Does 'Pokrovskoye' mean anything in particular?

Unfortunately the entire area is peppered with former manor houses in such delapidated state - most much worse than that shown above.   

How awful.

Those within a reasonable travelling distance of St Petersburg - up to 200 kilometres, are being sought out by wealthy businessmen who are taking them over to restore.   They are being allowed to redevelop the houses on the basis that the exterior is returned to as close to its original as possible.   If I recall correctly, irrespective of how much spent on the renovations, they are not allowed to hold title to the prorpery.   I know of two such manor houses just outside Pavlovsk, ravaged during the Nazi occupation, both of which have  been returned to their former glory on the exterior while the interiors are cutting edge modernity.   One  belongs to Schostakovich's son and his neighbour,, my friend, is the greatest benefactor in the north of Russia.

tsaria

It's a bit logical. That is, to keep the outside as closest to it's original aspect and to modernize the interiors. Who would like to live like in the beginning of the 20th century or the 30s or the 40s when one can have the "glory" of the present days?

Perhaps I'm confusing it, but, weren't some kind of international -or perhaps just Russian- enterprise buying former tzarist palaces to do what you pointed out, Tsaria?

[ChristineM]

The problem lies in title to the land.   Theoretically the state owns all the land.   Descendants of pre-Revolutionary owners have tried to lay claim, but it is impossible to obtain a valid title.

It is possible to renovate the interiors of these former manor houses in any preferred style.   It just sho happens the ones I have seen are extremely modern.   In one for example, from the outside the roof appears a traditional roof, but inside from the ground floor the roof rises through three levels and is made of glass.   In my opinion it is absolutely glorious.   The huge space of the ground floor is entirely open - including fabulous kitchen.   Library shelves are built into the walls to the side of the different sets of stairs.   The stairs are constructed from huge, solid timbers and the ballustrades are all tempered glass.    On top the two storeys, the bedrooms and bathrooms run round the perimeter of the building - affording views across the Slavyanka River to Fortress Bip.   To be honest, I much prefer this to a mocked up version of what was there before.   The present day craftsmanship is, in its own way, every bit as superb as what was there before and preferable to appearing like some stage set.

tsaria

[Kurt Steiner]

The problem lies in title to the land.   Theoretically the state owns all the land.   Descendants of pre-Revolutionary owners have tried to lay claim, but it is impossible to obtain a valid title.

How curious. What a mess, I guess.

It is possible to renovate the interiors of these former manor houses in any preferred style.   It just sho happens the ones I have seen are extremely modern.   In one for example, from the outside the roof appears a traditional roof, but inside from the ground floor the roof rises through three levels and is made of glass.   In my opinion it is absolutely glorious.   The huge space of the ground floor is entirely open - including fabulous kitchen.   Library shelves are built into the walls to the side of the different sets of stairs.   The stairs are constructed from huge, solid timbers and the ballustrades are all tempered glass.    On top the two storeys, the bedrooms and bathrooms run round the perimeter of the building - affording views across the Slavyanka River to Fortress Bip.   To be honest, I much prefer this to a mocked up version of what was there before.   The present day craftsmanship is, in its own way, every bit as superb as what was there before and preferable to appearing like some stage set.

tsaria

I fully agree. A reproduction -even if it would be done with the best intentions- would look to odd.

[Helen_Azar]

In so far as Pushkin/Tsarskoe Selo is concerned, I have already pointed out - and Helen must know - there are Nazi graves all over the Catherine and Alexander Parks as well as the Babalovsky Park, around Alexandrovskoye, the Tikhvin cemetery - thousands of them and I could go on.   The largest communal grave lies beneath the Granite Terrace of the Catherine Park.   Where do you begin and where do you end with this proposal of marking German war dead?   As you may be aware, there is a large black marble memorial to the Jews who suffered dreadfully in Pushkin during the occupation on the left hand side of Dvortsovskaya Ulitsa.   These people were natives of Pushkin.   We have their memories to honour.

Oh yes, of course I am aware of this. But perhaps I see this matter in a different light than some of you, because I see the Alexander Park as the extention of the TS museum, and this is part of the museum's history. Anything that took place within the "walls" of the museum should be documented for the visitors, IMO, and made into a form of a display. The mass grave in front of the AP should be documented as well, it is part of the museum's past, even if it is distasteful past. Instead, they seem to pretend that nothing happened there, which in itself is a sad thing, it's like trying to erase history (which the Soviets were so good at, BTW). This is the issue I have with this, nothing more nothing less...

[dmitri]

Nobody pretends at all. They just find the appalling atrocities committed quite disgusting and wish to remember the victims. That is what most decent people choose to do. Perhaps time should be taken to remember the many Soviet prisoners of war who were gassed and cremated by the Nazi Germans and have no known grave at all. That was a war crime in itself. At least the Nazi Germans buried in the grounds at Tsarskoe Selo have a grave in beautiful surroundings. Don't make the error of thinking people are not informed.

[Forum Admin]

I think this discussion comes down simply to differing points of view.  There are no right or wrong opinions here, we have to remember that. It is really just personal perspective.  Both sides in World War II committed atrocities. Soviet and Nazi. Nobody is truly innocent on either side.  Both sides believed in their hearts and minds they were doing the "right" thing.  Every man who fell in the war, on both sides, was somebody's son, brother, father, cousin or best friend. Every person who fell in the war, on both sides, left someone who mourned their loss.

History is written by the victor, is has been said. Well one of our dear members here, from Spain, had a grandfather who served in the Blue Brigade at TS during the War.  Luckily his grandfather went home alive and well. I just wonder what this discussion might have been had he been buried in that mass grave. 

I'm not taking sides here, honestly. Just trying to put perspective to the discussion. Whether WE like it or not, all of TS museum belongs to the Russian people, it is, after all THEIR patrimony, and we must ultimately respect their decisions about what they do there.  All WE can do, is keep that history alive for those who wish to understand it.  That's why we are here.

FA