King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)

[Eric_Lowe]

I don't think so. Wallis never really minded about that title, but it was important to David that his wife is a real HRH. The title thing marked an increase in hostility between the brothers that prevented a reconciliation. There was no road map on the future as far as the Windsors are concerned. I agree that the royals (especially the Queen Mum) was a very bitter woman and was the chief obstacle towards a move to rein in the Windsors back into the family. Yes, the visit to Germany and other things could have been prevented had they more wisdom and more tact on the situation. I never bought the chocolate box image of the Queen Mum, she herself once admitted "You think I am a very nice woman, but I am not" was close as a confession as any.

[Gerta]

I don't have any references at hand, but what was the story with Dickie Mountbatten and the Windsors.  Was it Mountbatten who went over to France to warn them of "bad news" regarding the King's decision?

[Eric_Lowe]

No. He did not go. He wanted to be on the new king's good graces. Mountbatten literally abandoned his former close friend.

[Eddie_uk]

Eric as you know I usually ignore your posts but I couldn't let this one pass chiefly due to the grave errors written.

Firstly it is an excepted fact that Wallis craved royal recognition and a title, you don't have to research much to discover that (Sarah Bradfords George VI for example).

Also the Queen Mother, while very determined character, like a lot of Leo's, myself included, and definitely not a "bitter woman" as you call her. Bitterness shows on peoples faces and they also don't tend to live long lives IMO. Also she was not the chief obstacle to the Windsors "return" George V never got over the shock at learning of his brothers intention to abdicate & did not want his brother back in England, fact! He did his best to help him find posts in Bahamas etc but there was always a moan from the Duke.

Kindly be more careful what you post to avoid grave historical errors.

[Eric_Lowe]

Eddie, if you do your research you will find out that there is a new thought that the reason behind the Queen Mum's hostility is the fact that David did not pick her. She got along with Winnifred Dudley-Ward ((David's prior mistress)but couldn't stand Wallis due to her foreignness and lack of tact (making jokes at her expense).

As for looking for a title, if you are offered one, would you have turned it down ? Do remember that Wallis was an American and did not understood the full ramification of such an action (marrying a divorced foreigner), yet Edward VIII was raised in an institution knew full well the stakes were. Also he was in fact rebelling against the system. That was beside the point. When Wallis realized the cause was lost, she caved in completely to institution and offer to withdraw her divorce (this is a fact) and go away. What more can a woman do in such circumstances. The recent discovered letters with Ernst proved that she was surprised that he went after her. Most people were surprised that he who was raised to honor one's country and sacrifice for it would do something so shocking as abdication.

I think you mixed George V with George VI again. That fact that he did not want his brother back is false. After the abdication, the brothers did discuss the situation and promised that he could return after a few years of exile when the hoopla died down. But later he changed his mind being afraid of the popularity of his older brother would steal his thunder.   

Another fact is that George VI did not want Edward in the Bahamas, it was Winston Churchill that convinced him that it was important to rein his brother in. Edward wanted to serve in Wales, but all post in Britain was turned down.

I do check my facts, pray you do too.

[Gerta]

My scottish great-grandmother once said that "The Scots can hold a grudge to the grave and back".  It sounds like this is exactly what the Queen Mother did!

[Eric_Lowe]

Indeed she did. However she did softened towards Wallis after the death of the Duke. By that time, it was too little too late. Another indication of her forgiveness was her attending Wallis funeral. As a Dowager Queen, she could chose not to go, but she did. There is a photo of her and the Princess of Wales watching as Wallis's coffin was being carried down the steps from the church.

[Eddie_uk]

Of course Eric, you know best, as always....


....as for that old story about Queen Elizabeth feeling hostility because Edward VIII didn't pick her, oh pleeasseee......As has been pointed out Elizabeth was an old fashioned girl which made a refreshing change from the chain smoking fast girls of the 1920s.

Also all biographers agree that Elizabeth was deeply religious and very traditional, which is presumably why she refused several suitors she considered not suitable, and instead chose someone with a reputation of faithful dependability. It makes no sense for a woman of her high principles to fall for the likes of the Duke of Windsor. It just does not add up.

I rest my case.

[Alixz]

I am just now reading about the Bahamas appointment.  From Greg King's book:

Privately, neither Wallis nor David was thrilled with the appointment.  To Aunt Bessie, Wallis complained: "The St. Helena of 1940 is a nice spot."  There was little doubt that the appointment was meant as a punishment. The colonial secretary, Lord Lloyd, dined with Sir Reginald Storrs, who noted" "G. [Lloyd George] told me that the Windsors appointment in the Bahamas is the King's own idea , to keep him at all costs out of England."  The appointment, harsh as it was, failed to please Queen Elizabeth, who later wrote to Lord Lloyd that she thought the Bahamas was too good for the Windsors and that Wallis was wholly unfit to be the wife of a governor-general.

[Eric_Lowe]

Thanks Alixz !

I rest my case. If Elizabeth the Queen Mother is not bitter, I don't know what is. "too good for Wallis". PLEASE ! If the Queen Mum was a religious and Christian woman she would understood the power of forgiveness, instead it was she who carried the feud on. She stipulated that nobody even as faraway as Bahamas NOT to curtsy to Wallis. Yes she was not a very nice woman...in her own words indeed. Yes Gerta she did hold the grudge for a very long time.

If you read the official bio on QE (please do !). Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was was in love with a young man named Jamie. She was in love with him, but he was transported off the scene to make way for Bertie. Also Queen Mary did considered Elizabeth for the Prince of Wales, but he wasn't interested.

[LadyTudorRose]

I think the Queen Mum was genuinely surprised Wallis and David stayed together. Perhaps she thought she misjudged them a bit and that's why she softened to Wallis. I've always gotten the impression Bertie and Elizabeth disliked Wallis so much partly because they felt she didn't love David and was using him. They thought after he abdicated she would eventually leave him; that's one of the reasons she was denied the HRH. She had been divorced twice, why not a third time? If you read the letters Bertie and Elizabeth wrote David at the time of the abdication you can see they really did care about him and what he was feeling. They didn't mention it to him, but in letters to friends and relatives Elizabeth said she was convinced David would end up being very hurt by Wallis and regretting giving up the throne for her.

I don't feel bad for Wallis except when it came to the end of her life. No one deserves that. When it came to the scandal, it was not the first media sensation. Wallis was a fan of Charlie Chaplin who had had some scandals over his love life so surely she was aware of that. When you get involved with someone really famous it will eventually get out. David had had some privacy with previous girlfriends in Britain, but not with American tabloids, though they frequently got things wrong. Wallis would have had to have been pretty damn naive to think there would never ba a scandal if she kept things up with David. I've also always believed the scandal bothered her more than the abdication. She didn't want David to abdicate that's true, but if you read the letter she wrote him when she asked him notto abdicate the main fears and doubts she expresses are in regards to how things will look and how the media is treating her. She constantly complains about the way the press is treating her and the reporters following her around. She also got death threats and someone threw a brick at her house. If David had been king of some tiny little kingdom in Eastern Europe that no one cared about and the abdication and marriage had happened with little comment I think Wallis would have been much less upset.

I believe that Wallis did love David and wanted to be with him, if not marry him. If she didn't I would certainly not have any sympathy for her being "trapped" into marriage with him. If she didn't love him that means she lied for years about loving him. That means she was willing to divorce her husband to marry him just because she wanted a title. And she did want that divorce, whatever anyone says. She wrote her Aunt Bessie saying so and she had a lot less motive to lie to her than to Ernest. If you lie to someone to exploit them into giving you things and then they assume you actually love them that's not their fault. While it may have been hard for her to get out by late 1936 she had plenty of a chance to break up with him if she didn't love him before things got so serious. If she didn't love him she shouldn't have acted like she did and she shouldn't have told him she did. If she wanted to stay with Ernest so bad she shouldn't have filed for divorce. Furthermore if she was so unhappy and miserable with David she shouldn't have stayed with him for so long. Sure, it would have looked bad, but a lot of people already hated her and didn't think the marriage would last anyways. No one was forcing her to stay. No one forced her to get involved with David in the first place. No one forced her to divorce Ernest. If she was so misrable it was because she made her own bed and had to lie in it.

But it doesn't really matter, because I do think she loved David and I don't think she was ever really miserable with him. There was conflict in their marriage just like every marriage and I'm sure there were things about him she didn't like, but the same could be said for anyone in a long-term relationship. I think this idea the Windsor marriage was so awful comes from wishful thinking on the part of people who don't think they deserved to be happy. Sort of like those rumors that occasionally turn up about Charles and Camilla getting divorced. None of this comes from Wallis and David themselves; they always maintained they were happy. Of course they weren't always happy and I'm sure both of them had regrets they prefered not to talk about, but it's a pretty far stretch to suggest that means they were miserable and Wallis never loved David. Both among people who like them and people who hate them there seems to be this strong aversion to even suggesting that they might have just had an ordinary relationship that tuned into a perfectly normal marriage just like anyone else's.
It was either they had the most perfect love story ever or they were absolutely miserable.

[grandduchessella]

My scottish great-grandmother once said that "The Scots can hold a grudge to the grave and back".  It sounds like this is exactly what the Queen Mother did!

I don't get how only the Queen Mother and the Royal Family were the bitter ones. David never ceased in badmouthing his parents every chance he got (even with stories demonstrably proven false by later researchers) and permanently in some cases blackening their reputations. He continued to hold a grudge harder and longer than any of the principle players here. It was his way or the highway as much as any of the remaining British royal family. He bitched and moaned throughout his entire life about his 'ill-treatment' and never once seemed (in any recorded or demonstrable way) to take responsibility for his actions (which  affected his wife, his immediate family, the nation and the Commonwealth) or accept a modicum of blame.

If ANYone had the right to be bitter it was GVI and his wife and I don't blame them one bit. If it were up to me, I would've stripped David of his HRH as well.

And women can hold grudges, certainly. Walking in, as the Queen Mother did while Duchess of York, to 'upstart' Wallis mocking and imitating her to a roomful of common associates--well, she would've been on my sister-in-law crap list for good just for that!

[Eric_Lowe]

I think people did misjudge Wallis. She was always loyal to the men in her life (except maybe Ernst). She did love him, that was the main reason why she was willing to go away (even without a clear settlement, which she wouldn't if she was a real gold digger). Wallis did admit it is very hard to live down a real romance, although she also said "He gave up so much for me." A strong bond was forged between them although sometimes David's neediness would drive Wallis up the wall (especially the time when Jimmy Donahue came into the picture). Donahue who was gay, was regarded as a lover for Wallis (completely absurd). I think with Wallis people are willing to believe the worst (from a hooker in Shanghai to being a man really !).  

[Alixz]

According to Greg's book, David set up the divorce for Wallis.  Wallis, according to Greg, didn't have much to say about it and she had no way to stop it.  I don't know about that.  I am up the the Bahamas now, but it is all very confusing.

It does seem , though, that every time David made a move to go back to England and to take up some kind of position to help with the war, King George VI would rescind the offer.  Queen Elizabeth was always right behind her husband with letters and comments of her own.

[RoyalWatcher]

My scottish great-grandmother once said that "The Scots can hold a grudge to the grave and back".  It sounds like this is exactly what the Queen Mother did!

I don't get how only the Queen Mother and the Royal Family were the bitter ones. David never ceased in badmouthing his parents every chance he got (even with stories demonstrably proven false by later researchers) and permanently in some cases blackening their reputations. He continued to hold a grudge harder and longer than any of the principle players here. It was his way or the highway as much as any of the remaining British royal family. He bitched and moaned throughout his entire life about his 'ill-treatment' and never once seemed (in any recorded or demonstrable way) to take responsibility for his actions (which  affected his wife, his immediate family, the nation and the Commonwealth) or accept a modicum of blame.

If ANYone had the right to be bitter it was GVI and his wife and I don't blame them one bit. If it were up to me, I would've stripped David of his HRH as well.

And women can hold grudges, certainly. Walking in, as the Queen Mother did while Duchess of York, to 'upstart' Wallis mocking and imitating her to a roomful of common associates--well, she would've been on my sister-in-law crap list for good just for that!

Well said, granduchessella ! ! !