Author Topic: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)  (Read 574923 times)

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Alixz

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1245 on: September 06, 2011, 05:18:21 PM »
I was going to make the point about the "supposed dirt poor" upbringing.  Wallis may have had to rely on her relatives, but she did go to the best schools and she did "come out" as a debutant.

In fact there is an story about her going to her uncle to get money for her "coming out" and he handed her two $20 bills.  That might not sound like much to us with inflation, but it was a great deal of money in pre World War One Baltimore.

Perhaps David could not "force" Wallis to marry him as she was an American citizen, but he could and did threaten suicide if she left him and promised to "find her" where ever she went.

Also, I think she did dream of being Queen of England.  I think she did think that David could make it all come out right in the end and had no intention of seeing him abdicate, not because she cared what happened to him, but because she cared what happened to herself.

But one thing I find interesting.  Even with almost a century of women's rights successes, we still tend to blame both Queen Elizabeth and the Duchess of Windsor and seem to forget that they had husbands who also made choices and decisions.  Why do we see the women, including Queen Mary, as the "bad guys" instead of the actual "bad guys" - the men who were involved.

One other thing?  Does anyone know why Wallis's parents named her Wallis after her father instead of using a more feminine name?  Her father was Teackle Wallis Warfield.  He was known (and I understand him) as T. Wallis.  The Duchess of Windsor was named Bessie Wallis Warfield after her Aunt Bessie and her father.

Robert_Hall

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1246 on: September 06, 2011, 06:18:48 PM »
I do not really know how where her moniker came about. However, in my  family [Pennsylvania] Wallis was not uncommon.  I had an uncle Wallis [given name] as well as an aunt Wallis., also given.
 However, going back to topic, I feel she was just a user. One that lost control of her game. She ended up with  everything she could have wished for, a luxury, pampered and protected life  with a servile,  idiot of a mate. he found easy to manipulate.
 No threat of childbearing or duty.
 I am harsh on the Windsors,  think they were a waste of time. BUT, still worthy of  trivial gossip.
 

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1247 on: September 06, 2011, 08:03:30 PM »
I don't think Wallis was being a user. David used her to get away from the duties that he was brought up since a child, that for me was irresponsible and spoilt. Wallis on the other hand had to rely on others (her uncle was rich but her mother and herself had little cash, like Jackie Bouvier who had been a debutante, but no real money herself). Wallis made her way after her divorce from her first husband and not much security until she married the wealthy and comfortable Ernst Simpson. Wallis was actually (like Fergie years later) "a breath of fresh air" to the stuffy British aristocratic circles, even though her taste is not for everyone. The fact that Wallis was quite a free spirit no doubt attracted POW. But to think that Wallis could dream about herself as queen is quite ridiculous.  She was living a day-to-day existence with him. The fact that she did offer to release him proved that she was not selfish (at least not as far as David was concerned). She was a sensible woman who made a good choice in her relationship with POW (like Camilla Parker Bowles years later), to blame her for Edward VIII's lapse in his duty to his family and country is a bit unfair. Anyway, she did not force him to marry her didn't she ? 

feodorovna

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1248 on: September 07, 2011, 03:24:26 AM »
Alixz, I am not one of the number who see QM, QEQM, or DoW as the "bad guys." My contention has always been that without strong women David, Bertie, Henry and George would have floundered. None of them seemed to know how to think for themselves-could this have been because their dominating parents controlled how they thought and felt? That if they ever showed any kind of individualistic thinking their bombastic father shot them down in flames. I believe these males had clout only because of WHO they were. None of them were particularly bright, they just happened to be the sons of the King.
I think Wallis, Elizabeth, Alice and Marina enabled their rather poor male specimens to be the best it was possible for them to be. David, IMO, would not have been a good King. He  clearly did not want to be the same sort of King as his father but didn't know how to be the King he would have chosen to be. Wallis made it possible for him to be a good husband to her which was better than than making a poor job of something he hadn't the capacity for. Elizabeth's success story with Bertie is well documented-was it his mother who commented that the right wife would be the making of him? Were truer words ever spoken? Alice seemed to manage very well to hold her own with brusque, curmudgeonly Henry, no easy thing, he seems to have been most like his father in temperment and character. Who but beautiful Marina would have coped as well with Georges dubious sexuality and allowed him to express the artistic side of his personality by the placement of flowers and objets' d'art in their home.
Three of the four Princes were permitted to marry women of their choice and probably their lives were made better by it. Churlish, then, to deny David the same advantage, when without Wallis' support and direction he would probably added up to nothing much.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1249 on: September 07, 2011, 03:45:54 AM »
Wallis Simpson was a poor relation in a rich family, but in no sense did she grow up in poverty. As stated above, she went to the best girls' school in Baltimore and came out as a debutante. It is also noticeable that although her mother worked to make ends meet, Wallis never did. Even at the nadir of her fortunes, when she broke up with Winfield Spencer, someone always stepped in and provided for her.

Edward's brothers (and sister) were all able to marry for love, but they all married 'suitable' people. Alice of Gloucester was a Duke's daughter (and her father had been a midshipman with George V), Elizabeth Bowes'Lyon was the daughter of a 14th Earl. Marina was a Princess of Greece and Denmark. None of them had anything approaching a 'past'. Lord Harewood may not have been the answer to a maiden's prayer, but he was heir to an earldom and had a decent war record. Perhaps it was Edward's misfortune that the woman he fell in love with was utterly unsuitable (bear in mind that we are in a transition period between marrying other royalties and marrying commoners).

Ann

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1250 on: September 07, 2011, 07:49:24 AM »
Yes, but things did not magically happen for Wallis. She was a poor relation and had to beg for security, that is not something that Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon or Alice Montagu-Scott had think think about. As a result, Wallis had to learn how to please others to achieve security. In short, Wallis had to work at it. It was to her credit that she was ale to charm others to foot the bill for her. Yes, that is the real reason why there is always "someone stepped in and provide for her". Marina, was also a relatively "poor" princess compared to her wealthy Scottish in-laws.

Alixz

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1251 on: September 07, 2011, 08:33:05 AM »
I did notice that even when Wallis was in China, she seemed to be able to find someone who would "pay her way".  I think that doesn't make her smart but manipulative.

I know that she was a "poor relation" but right from the beginning that was only because her father had been treated by his family as if his illness was a horrible misfortune and somehow his own fault.  As if tuberculosis can be any one's fault.  He died less than one year after his marriage, but Wallis and her mother were taken right into the Warfield home.  It was Wallis's mother who wanted "out" because she saw unwanted attention from her brother in law.  Also Solomon Warfield was a Mama's boy and when he showed interest in Alice, Mama Anna felt the pain of a son she depended on begin to separate from her.

However, Solomon Warfield kept paying the bills for Wallis and her mother.  When he didn't pay then Aunt Bessie did.  Wallis's cousins also paid for some of her debut.  She never seemed to be at a loss for someone to take over for her.  Also remember that Alice Warfield married a second time to a Mr. Rasin and even though he also died relatively young, while he lived, she and Wallis were well taken care of.

That could be why David was so attractive.  He was taking over her life and arranging it to suit himself and she was happy to let him.  Someone had always come to her rescue and now it was, of all people. The Prince of Wales!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1252 on: September 07, 2011, 09:39:42 AM »
We have a family joke that my grandmother was remarkably good at appearing helpless when getting on and off trains. Invariably a gentleman would appear and help her with her bag, for all that Grandma was 5ft 8 and very far from helpless.

I rather see Wallis Simpson as someone who made a career out of appearing helpless when she wanted to - hence all those people coming to her rescue.

Ann

LadyCathy

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1253 on: September 07, 2011, 09:46:20 AM »
You make an excellent point Alixz.  She did always have someone take care of her.  However, her husband, Mr. Simpson was already taking good care of her.  She had a beautiful apartment on Bryanston Court and a place in society.  Of course, I do not solely blame Wallis for happened.  You have never heard me on the subject of the Duke of Windsor's behavior.  Both the DOW and Prince Charles were the prime movers in their situations.  I have never blamed Wallis or Camilla as much as I blame David and Charles.  Saying "no" to royalty is not easy and I fully understand that.  However, neither Wallis nor Camilla were obligated to continue their relationships.  In this I blame Wallis more than I do Camilla, but I blame the DOW more than I do Prince Charles. 

Alixz

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1254 on: September 07, 2011, 10:32:02 AM »
Now having finished reading Greg King's book on Wallis and years ago, reading The Woman He Loved, I still think that Wallis was playing games.  The rules changed and she got caught between the game she thought she was playing and the game that David was playing.

If she had truly not wanted to leave Ernest and marry David, she could never have begun the relationship to begin with.  I think she thought she was in charge but found out that royalty has its own rules and she lost all control of the situation.  She wanted a fling and all of the attention that it brought her, but she ended up in a life changing situation.

In her position, my head might have been turned as well.  I can't say.

But no matter how she acted, there were still the men involved and how they acted.  Ernest let it happen, David wanted it to happen, and in the end it was the Prime Minister and Parliament who made the final decisions.

As for Charles, if he had been allowed to marry Camilla in the beginning when they were young, none of the Diana, Princes of Wales things would have happened.  So I have never seen Charles as more than a pawn in a larger game that he had to play if he wanted to or not.  As for Diana, she was young an impressionable and "in love" "whatever that means".

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1255 on: September 07, 2011, 10:33:34 AM »
I think there is a fine line between manipulative & smart. She wasn't particularly smart when she married Win Spencer (no money and abusive at the same time). She was in love with him and got very bruised about it. That experienced may have made her to realize that she must take care of her own interests. Ernst Simpson was a good and comfortable situation, but POW is one notch better. With POW telling her situations with his grandfather's mistresses (the most famous being Alice Keppel who kept her relationship with other royals even after she was discarded after the king's death), she was happy to oblige and take advantage of being POW or the King's favorite. Wallis had taken over where Thelma & Freda had left off, it must have crossed her mind that she might one day be replaced. So the accepting of valuable jewelry and lavish trips seem to her more like making hay where the sun is warm. It was a surprise to her that he wanted to marry her. She might be forgiven to be naive when she thought David could arrange it. I understand why she wanted out when the tough got going. Wallis had went from one situation to another ever since her divorce from Win Spencer.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1256 on: September 07, 2011, 10:39:50 AM »
Yes Alixz. Especially when they holidayed in Greece, King George II brought his own mistress on board with the party too. So being a married woman and mistress of a royal is not that far fetched. In fact in the court of King Louis XV, you HAD to be married to become a king;'s mistress. Madame Du Barry was hastily married before she was allowed formally to the court of Versailles. So there is nothing new about it.
 
Indeed it was the men who made the decision (Ernst, David, Baldwin & the Parliament). Wallis was the passive one in the marriage situation. 

feodorovna

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1257 on: September 07, 2011, 01:19:16 PM »
Ann. I think what I was trying to get across in a rather longwinded way was that whilst Wallis was not a "suitable" wife for EdwardVIII, she was a totally "suitable" wife for David Windsor, who IMO, was totally UNsuitable to be EdwardVIII.
Lady Cathy, you make Wallis' possible rejection of David sound so easy. All she had to do was turn her back and walk away. Perhaps she tried, who knows? How could she refuse thePOW entry to a home he visited as a guest of her husband? Would it not have been unseemly for him to be seen demanding entrance? I imagine he knew how to play the "poor Me" card to perfection-as he had with Freda Dudly Ward-and Wallis undoubtly would have been flattered that he shared his feelings with her, so whilst she was listening to his woes he was reeling her in. All relationships can be messy-this one was messier.
Eric Lowe, I usually concur with what you say but I can't agree with your view of Wallis as a "sensible woman who made a good choice in her relationship with POW" - IMO she was either sensible or she had a relationship with him!!!!!

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1258 on: September 07, 2011, 02:35:33 PM »
I've never really gotten them impression Wallis was really trapped. It's ridiculous to imply that one suicide threat (assuming it actually happened; this story doesn't come from Wallis herself) could keep someone in a relationship they didn't want for years. Wallis didn't want David to abdicate, but after he did I think there was nothing she wanted more than to marry him and spend the rest of her life with him and had something come along to prevent that from happening she would have been furious. Even if we take the "it would've looked bad" out of the equation; let's assume he left her and not the other way around. Her life would've been terrible without him. A lot of her friends jumped ship after the abdication, she didn't have a job, her parents were dead and she was an only child. Her reputation was ruined. If David hadn't married her Wallis would've found herself in the position of a Rielle Hunter type, or Fergie after Andrew. Nobody wants that. She needed him as much as he needed her both emotionally and financially. You could argue that that was his fault and he put her in that position, but Wallis didn't seem to see it that way. She made a sport of blaming everyone but David, from Queen Mary to Stanley Baldwin to some kind of large shadowy conspiracy. She constantly whined about David being mistreated, not David mistreating her.

I've always gotten the impression Wallis thought she should have left, not that she ever really wanted to leave. I mean, she left Slipper with David. If she had really planned on never seeing him again she wouldn't have done that. Furthermore, when it was put to her that she should flee Europe to prevent David from abdicating, her reaction was to call him and talk it over with him. If you're really desperate to leave the country and never see someone again that's usually a situation where leaving a note works better. I think that Wallis was willing to leave if she thought it was necessary and on some level she thought it was the right thing to do. But I don't think she really wanted to do it. I really do believe Wallis loved David and wanted to be with him, but even if she didn't she at least liked him and knew her prospects were much better with him in her life than without him. I think the absolute worst case scenario for Wallis was ending up alone.

Alixz

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1259 on: September 07, 2011, 05:32:20 PM »
My point exactly was that after the abdication, Wallis was caught. She would have been persona non Grata no matter where she went or what she did.

She might still have had Ernest, but by that time her divorce from him was final.  Maybe he would have taken her back, but maybe not.  He was a British subject by that time and David was his King.  How could Ernest take back the woman who had caused his king to abdicate?

So I have always thought that no matter what, after the abdication, Wallis was trapped.  She made the best of the situation.  She wasn't going to be queen or even HRH, but she couldn't just walk away at that point either.  Any life with David was better than no life at all.  I think that we all forget how "black listed" any one especially a woman could be in the 1930s for what Wallis did.  To not follow through with the wedding and then the life they shared would have put her completely out of "Society".  From what I can tell of her from Greg's book and others, that was not the way she was made.

Perhaps they grew to love one another.  From the photos, it looks that way.  No one can fake the loving smiles that they show in the photos I have seen.  Either way, they lived a complete life for over 35 years.  It is a very good thing that they had no children or descendants of the Windsors would be running around today.  Who knows what kind of royal trouble that would have caused?