King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)

[Kalafrana]

I am in full agreement with Alixz's point about Wallis Simpson never stirring her stumps to look after herself. Contrast my maternal grandmother, a good middle class girl born in 1885 (father was manager of a brewery) who made a disastrous first marriage at the age of 21. Her husband died in 1916, leaving her with three childrewn aged nine, seven and 16 months. My eldest aunt remembered the whole family moving house with two suitcases between them, and having to take her infant sister to school because there was no one to leave her with. My grandmother's disapproving family provided rent-free accommodation but no more, so she was reduced to going out cleaning, then to working in a uniform factory while the war was still on, and finally in a margarine works. In 1926 she married my grandfather, who was a good provider if not all that well paid (he used to walk five of the ten miles to and from work in order to save money), but life until then had been very tough indeed.

Interestingly, my father has an idea that while a widow my grandmother turned down a proposal from a neighbour who was a solicitor and quite comfortably off (this gentleman took an interest in the family when he was a boy and apparently carried a torch for my grandmother). Very different from the grasping Wallis!

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

I think that Wallis's way of looking after herself was to find a good man to take care of her. My grandmother made a very good marriage and taught my mother to do the same. Lady Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon also believe that woman's role is to be a helpmate for a man and of course to make a good marriage. I think this is a subject that both Elizabeth & Wallis would both agree. They were not bred to be working women (I seriously doubt Alice would want to work if she did not need to). And why not ? Wallis had charm in spades and even some women thought of her as "interesting". Friends like Herman & Katherine Rogers never did let her down.

[Alixz]

Eric - I believe that in the 1930s most all women would not have worked unless they needed to.  Times have, of course, changed and now women are encouraged to have careers independent of their husband's.  It is probably why so many marriages end in divorce these days.  Why stay if you can support yourself?

In the past two years, three of my best male friends have had their wives leave them.  One after 8 years, one after 12 years, and one after 15 years.  All of their ex wives could support themselves and saw no reason to stay with their husbands.

Three of my women friends have also married and then divorced and remarried.  None of the three men friends have remarried.

Actually the times changed during the 1940s when women were encouraged to work for the war effort.  They liked the freedom and the money and found that they didn't feel they needed the support of men.

Wallis's three marriages came before the trend of the working woman in the 1940s and so she is to be judged by the mores of her times.  And I believe that a Queen whether a consort or regnant IS a working woman.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

Well, Canadian television has been ballyhooing that Madonna is coming to Toronto for the Film Festival there.
Apparently, her movie about the Windsors, called "W.E." is to play there.

I've never heard of any of the actors in it, but the actress playing Wallis looks much better than the real thing.
I may see it if & when it comes to Calgary;  although I consider Madonna as just a garbage celebrity.....

Larry

[CountessKate]

although I consider Madonna as just a garbage celebrity.....

I think that's a little unfair, she has many talents - acting however, does not seem to be amongst them.

Wallis's three marriages came before the trend of the working woman in the 1940s and so she is to be judged by the mores of her times.  And I believe that a Queen whether a consort or regnant IS a working woman.

I think that's a very valid point, often overlooked - both Wallis and Elizabeth came of a generation and from classes in which the only real career was marriage and anything else - such as an actual job - was a sign of failure - your father or husband wasn't able to support you in sufficient comfort. 

[feodorovna]

Despite that Wallis and Elizabeth both came from a similar class, Elizabeth truly belonged but Wallis was on the outside edge, always reliant on Uncle Sol and perhaps-and by no means am I suggesting any impropriety on his part, towards her-being required to behave in ways which did not incur his displeasure and cause him to withhold financial support. Certainly, she attended good schools, but I wonder how long it took her fellow students to find out that she was a poor relation and therefore "didn't quite fit"? I believe that Uncle Sol was less generous to his nephews' widow than to her child-did he make advances that she rejected?-and this may be why she was forced to work. Perhaps Wallis was embarrassed to take friends home because she didn't want them to know what life outside of school was like. Might she have longed for her mother to make a match with Uncle Sol in order for them to be financially secure and could it have been around that time that she formed the opinion that all a woman had to do was find a wealthy man, play her cards right and she would be provided for? Maybe love never came into the equation.
Curiously, it was her mother's proficiancy with a needle which helped her develop her style. She frequently shocked by wearing trousers and tuxedos which had been altered to fit her and in which she looked stunning and I believe her "coming out" dress, worn at the party she had to, rather than chose to share, was a wedding dress restyled by her mother. Perhaps, had she had the money, she would have dressed the same as the other girls and would never have developed her own unique style.
In Elizabeth's world, wealth was not overtly displayed, but ever present and the possibilities of marrying less than that were rare, if not, nonexistent-her future security was assured.

[Eric_Lowe]

I agree totally. Elizabeth had the security whereas Wallis did not. Which is my she had to "look out for herself" especially after her divorce from Win Spencer. Her ability to shine in terms of style came early, like Queen Alexandra, she created her own style from being poor. Elizabeth was happy to be in tweeds and secure within the confines of her class and circle. One must also remember Jacqueline Bourvier's family did not want her to work but make a good marriage instead. Her mother Janet Lee made a bad marriage and secure a more financially stable second marriage. This was the mother of the first day of America !!!

[Kalafrana]

While it's true that women of that generation and class thought in terms of marriage or career, those who were widowed frequently did end up working in order to support themselves and any children. Increasingly, unmarried girls also worked, particularly when money was short. I would highly recommend people to read 'The Ugly One', by Hermione, Countess of Ranfurly. She was born just before WW1 into a landed gentry family in Wales, but her father ran out of money around 1930, her mother became mentally ill, and in the early 1930s Hermione was thrown onto her own resources. She found herself a bedsit and a job demonstrating gas cookers in Selfridges before taking a course in shorthand and typing and becoming a secretary. She writes that it wasn't as bad as it sounds, because she had lots of friends who would invite her home for weekends, but it was obviously quite tough. Happily, her connections got her a job as social secretary to the wife of the Governor of South Australia, and while out there she met her husband, who had inherited an earldom but no money.

By 1930 it was far from unusual for upper class girls to learn shorthand and typing (the Pitman School was the place to go).

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

Depending on which circles you are talking about. If you see the movie "Mona Liza Eyes" starring Julia Roberts, you can see how many women got to college just to land the right man (from Harvard) to marry. That story was about how a teacher rebels against the system. That was in the 1950's. So I don't think Wallis was too backward in trying to find a man to take care of her. In Japan as late as 10 years ago, women are expected to quit their jobs after they marry.

[Alixz]

Up through the 1960s, women still left work to marry.  It was the sexual revolution of the 1960s and the women's rights movement of the 1970s that changed that.

It was also the banking laws of the 1980s that allowed two salaries to be used to qualify for loans and mortgages that made women want to be able to use their salaries as leverage in borrowing money.  So they kept working to increase the options and the value of the things they could afford.

I remember (and this is how far back I go) agreeing with my high school graduating class friends that we would not go to our 10th reunion unless we were married.  The funny part of it is that by that time, we WERE all married, but the rules had changed and so had we.  It actually didn't matter any more.

[Kalafrana]

My mother gave up work to get married (in 1959). But the point that I'm making is that widows - and they are the nearest parallel to Wallis Simpson after she left Winfield Spencer -very frequently worked to make ends meet, just as her mother did. Another, and rather earlier example is the mother of Field Marshal Sir Claude Auchinleck. Her husband, a Colonel in the Royal Artillery, died in 1892, leaving her with four children under nine and a pension of £90 per year. Mrs Auchinleck gave piano lessons and looked after an invalid in order to eke out the pension, and fortunately the children were all intelligent and hard working and got scholarships to cover most of the cost of their education.

So sitting around waiting for a second husband to turn up wasn't necessarily the norm.

Ann

[Alixz]

And I believe that even though Wallis and her mother did not have an easy time that Wallis was spoilt!  She got everything she wanted from her Uncle Sol and her mother's second husband and from her Aunt Bessie's family and just continued to believe that she would always get exactly what she wanted.

That is why she moved from man to man to man.  She wanted to be given what she needed not to have to work for it.

[Eric_Lowe]

I don't think Wallis was spoilt. She had to live through the stigma of being "the poor relation", and I don't see her being nearly as comfortable as Lady Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon. To get something out of somebody, one has to compromise one's desire early to please your care taker. Do not forget that Wallis's first husband was NOT wealthy and she had to eat a lot of humble pie afterwards (at least psychologically). Wallis was talented that she could keep a party going with her wit and "original" ideas. So I do not agreed that she was "spoilt" in the way Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan or Ivanka Trump was.

[Alixz]

And the gift of giving a "good party" is so so very important.  More important than working and supporting one's self.

[Robert_Hall]

Massive, tasteless jewelry,  designer  clothes, pampered  hairdressing [Alexandre of Paris ?]  fabulous homes,  brainless conversation, at costly night clubs,..... spoilt ? Never !
 I have just received the new Vickers book and although I enjoy his writing, the cover says it all- "The Tragic Story...]  Easy to see his will be a sympathetic tome on the woman. [ I think they were friends, actually].