King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)

[Robert_Hall]

OK, get this  straight,  Wallis  WAS Duchess of Windsor  by virtue of her marriage to the Duke.  [Mrs. Duke]  That is a title. The STYLE HRH is by the sole virtue of the sovereign.  By the exact same token.  Diana  WAS Princess of Wales, after the divorce she was no longer HRH. No one deprived her of anything, she was simply not married to  an HRH any longer.
 In Wallis' case,  she married after he abdicated and had no  power to endow the STYLE. IF she had married him before,  she might  gain the HRH but it did not happen that way, did it? Edward [David] was an HRH  because of his birth,  Wallis was not. In any case, all parties are dead now and what difference does it make? I am not saying Cookie was blameless in all this, but Wallis did not seem to really care one way or the other.

[Margot]

Robert I quite see where you are coming from! I do honest!

I just wanted to put my tuppence in about David not being covered by the Royal Marriages Act 1772 and that his postion and that of his future wife as HRH Prince Edward was different from any other member of the family past, present or future!

The fact I find so interesting, was the necessity as I understand it, for the Letters Patent of May 27th 1937 to somehow have to state in so many words that Wallis was to be Duchess of Windsor but that she was not to be styled HRH!

The case of Diana always irks me as in Britain as the divorced wife of a Duke may style her say Margot, Duchess of X but she loses the right to known officially as Her Grace the Duchess of X or even simply as Your Grace. This is why after the divorce it was decided that Diana's style and precedence should follow the example set of divorced Duchesses of the realms! Hence no HRH in a way similar to divorced Duchesses sans the Your/Her Grace' style!

As you say Robert it is old hat anyway....a curious and outdated issue of precedence!

[Robert_Hall]

People bowed & scarped their forlocks  for Diana, ... she remained  Princess of Wales,  [until she remarried] just as a divorced  MRS remained a Mrs [even if  former] She also remained "Highness,  just not a royal one. Sadly, fate made the whole issue mute. [I am not sure about the "Grace business, but think  that iss reserved for  non-royal dukes and senior clergy- bishops]
 In the case of Wallis,  It was not really a matter of precedence, so much- people tend to address you as you like to be. A lot of people call me "Lord Hall". Big deal.  I do not run around  using that moniker. I think Wallis was quite happy  just being a  common Duchess. It certainly did not bother her as much as it did the Duke.

[Margot]

I think you may be right Robert about the depravation of the HRH style in the case of Wallis. I hope that she did not let it eat away at her like it seens to have done the Duke of Windsor.

As a side note as soon as Charles and Diana's divorce was through Diana lost the style of HRH and had no right to bear the the style of HH either. People may have felt she was still a Princess but she no longer was and she was never technically or officially 'Princess Diana' but rather HRH the Princess of Wales during her marriage. After the divorce she reverted to Diana, Princess of Wales without any right to the style of HRH or Highness. If anything she was entitled by right to revert and become known formally as Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales. She was not permitted to be known officially as Her Highness Diana, Princess of Wales.

Very off thread sorry....but I did not bring Diana into this!

[Kalafrana]

Margot has summed up Diana's position admirably.

As to the abdication, Parliament gave formal effect to Edward VIII's Instrument of Abdication by His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936, which went through both Houses the next day. This, inter alia, provided that Edward was no longer covered by the 1772 Act, and that neither he no any 'iisue of his body' had any rights of succession to the throne.

In my view, wives of HRHs are styled HRH purely as a matter of courtesy, in the same way as wives of peers are styled 'the Countess of X' or whatever. As a matter of the royal prerogative, George VI was quite entitled to stipulate that the Duchess of Windsor should not be styled HRH. In my view, this was done mainly because it was thought unlikely that the marriage would endure, and there was the possibility of a divorced Duchess of Windsor running about, but also because, in plain English, the Duchess was a severe embarrassment to the royal family, and likely to remain so.

Ann

[Margot]

Ta very much Ann for clarifying the point about possible issue of the marriage! I had no idea about that bit!

Right I think I get what is what now with regards to David and Wallis and the HRH thing! I just do not think that the law as set in ink and vellum provided for the event of a King abdicating and therefore being exempt from the Royal Marriages Act! Anyway I am not a lawyer nor am I an expert on constitutional legalities but I think we can safely say that King and Cabinet made a decision and thus that decision was legal!

Anyway as Robert pointed out, it does not appear to have bothered Wallis that much!

[Robert_Hall]

As David/Edward seems to have been sexually dysfunctional  and Wallis  unable to  have children, [various sources] I think the idea of issue was rather irrelevant. However it apparently meant something in the  time. I personally do not care much for either of them,  but I like Wallis' style and determination. Edward, to me, was just a whinny, greedy wimpy, always feeling persecuted.  one of those people who blame all their problems on everyone but themselves. Wallis got what she wanted- a glamorous life, if not very productive. Beautiful homes, and  first class travel. BTW, she refused to fly, so was really a "jet-setter"  But preferred  the liners.  That I can  understand, I hate to fly as well, it is such a chore. I think she would be horrified of the likes of Easyjet if she were still alive. I know she flew back to England  for David's funeral, but it was like pulling teeth to get on the plane! But, by then, she was a broken old woman.  She had quite a colourfull life, to say the least. She made David shine,  even if he was an imbecile.

[Margot]

Really Robert I did giggle when I saw Wallis and Easyjet in the same sentence......what a picture it conjures up!!!! And I think we now all know how you feel about the Duke in particular!

I stayed on the Queen Mary a couple of years ago and had a good snoop through the staterooms the Windsors used when they travelled on the 'Mary' to travel back and forth to the States! I was rather pleased to see that the owners of the hotel have done well to try and preserve as many of the original fittings as possible in the staterooms and the one I had too! I loved the hot, cold and sea water options in the baths!

[Robert_Hall]

That poor old Queen Mary in Long Beach ?  I have been there several times over the years but never saw the Windsor suite.  The place was pretty much a mess at the time, I do not think the new owners knew  quite what to do with it. My partner & I   have a crossing on the QM2, however, 2 years ago. I could see how  they   preferred that to flight travel. I hated the dress up though.  I feel odd in a tuxedo!
 '
 Yes, I am rather outspoken on the  Duke. but this thread is a passing fancy, so to say.  Other than Wallis'  jewels and  dresses,  it does not get much attention, it seems.

[Margot]

I know what you mean about the disorder and question marks about the Queen Mary....but the staterooms and First Class dinning Saloon are amazingly intact! Didn't bother with all that paranormal tour guff though!

 As to 'dress up' every evening today aboard QM2......imagine in David and Wallis' day it was 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year, decade after decade! Times are very different now! Maybe some things are better now, or at least more practical in some ways! I would go spare having to change for dinner every night! Jewels and all!

[Eric_Lowe]

I don't think Wallis was like that at all. She was pure curtesey per se to the Royal Family. Most of the British Royal Family even the members of parliment then expressed their condolenses to her. They even welcome her to stay in Britian if she so wished. That was a far cry from the press at the time of the abdication. It was the Royal Family's treatment of her that looks petty. Wallis showed them that she had class and do need their crumbs of reconization. She said of the possibility of her finally getting HRH. "I don't need it, if it was during David's life time it would have meant something, but now it is finished."

[CountessKate]

According to Sir Harold Nicholson, the Duke referred in conversation to "Her (gasp) Royal (shudder) Highness (and not one eye dared meet the other)" so he had obviously decided to ignore the fact she didn't actually have the HRH style.  The frisson Nicholson described seems to indicate it genuinely meant something to people at the time - that she wasn't entitled to it, and that the Duke was ignoring that fact.

[Eric_Lowe]

I think the people were tired of the long exile that was strapped on the old and sick couple. It was then the RF began making overtures to the Windsors in France. As for the HRH, after the death of the Duke she never talked about it again. Surprisingly one of the most attentive towards Wallis was the Queen Mum ("Cookie" to Wallis). She guided her disoriented rival through the long furneral service and spoke to her for a while. She was heard to say "I know how you feel. I have been through that myself." Her many acts of consideration (sending of flowers and offer to visit Wallis in France) later were meaningful ways of reconciliation. That I am impressed.

[Robert_Hall]

Didn't Wallis  keep referring to the Duke as "the King"  long after the abdication, or am I thinking of Magda and Carol II ? I know she expected royal treatment, whether or not she behaved like one or was entitled to it. Still, I do not mind her,  like I said, she had style- her own which  complimented her meagre  physical assests,  and had the money to do it. David  could deny her nothing. Talk about besotted.

[Robert_Hall]

Why would they want to leave Paris? They were quite comfotable, their friends were there, they could afford excellent medical care. And, the British people had long forgotten them.  They had passed their shelf life  in England. In  France, they were stiill "high society".
 Wallis' end was quite sad though, I felt sorry for her at that point.
 All the riches still turns one into dust, doies it not?