Author Topic: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)  (Read 570390 times)

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Le Roi Soleil

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #660 on: January 14, 2009, 04:53:54 AM »


Duchess of Windsor's  bedroom on the attic floor of the Moulin De La Tuilerie ("The Mill")

Offline mcdnab

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #661 on: January 14, 2009, 09:15:56 AM »
Support for Edward VIII and his wish to marry Mrs Simpson did exist in large numbers amidst the populace as some released records have shown. However Edward's popularity as Prince of Wales and as King was a combination of his own talents in public (he was like his sister in law very good with people) and in his last weeks as King largely whipped up by the Beaverbrook press (who were anti Stanley Baldwin). It would be interesting to know how the unemployed miners and their families he visited in Wales would have felt if far from "summoning his ministers" and insisting "something must be done" on his return to London he was busy ordering yet more jewellery for Wallis and telling dinner party guests he "approved of splendour".

There is a problem with a fair assessment of him at this period because so many of his courtiers disapproved of him. Whilst his own section of society (Lady Cunard and her circle for example) adored him, another perhaps more traditional part of society deplored his behaviour (sacking his father's servants and behaving badly in their view). Whilst his tendency to modernity was admirable his other faults put almost everyone at court and in Government against him.

The main problem wasn't Mrs Simpson's character or her behaviour (the only people who really objected to her personally where the King's family - who didn't like the way she behaved towards him) it was the fact that she was twice divorced and that divorce still carried a deep social stigma.

Divorcee's weren't received at court and they couldn't remarry in the Church. Edward VIII was not only Head of the Church of England, but he ruled an Empire which still included Roman Catholic Ireland and Canada and Australia both with significant Roman Catholic populations - Baldwin was never able to make him see the problems he might cause by marrying a divorcee.

Once Edward determined to marry Wallis - even his supporters like Churchill urged him against it - and told Baldwin his intentions he had to act on the advice of his ministers and they were almost all opposed at home and abroad.  The Dominion telegrams whilst their opinions might have been directed by Baldwin were pretty clear - in fact the Australian Prime Ministers view was that it had gone too far and even if he would give Wallis up he'd damaged the monarchy so much he still should abdicate.

Personally I've always believed that the utterly spoilt and indulged man he was, he thought up to the last moment he could marry her and make her Queen Consort and Empress of India. But i've also thought the idea that he was forced by the cabinet into abdicating was myth, the chaos of the final weeks of the crisis don't suggest that the Government was "jockeying" him out of his throne - whilst granted that has largely been the arguement both the Windsors used in their memoirs, the same way they preferred to put the blame for their subsequent treatment on the two Queen's Mary and Elizabeth and depicting George VI as hen-pecked (rather ironic given the way the Duchess treated the Duke).
His subsequent behaviour was what largely destroyed his relationship with his family, though its true that his mother in particular could never understand why her son was willing to put his personal desires ahead of his duties and responsibilities as King.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #662 on: January 14, 2009, 11:27:39 AM »
It is now been established that the common people far from oppose the marriage actually supported King Edward VIII in the matter of his personal happiness. It was the courtiers and people in the government that could not stand the fact that he wanted to marry Mrs Simpson. The government withhold facts from the king and made him believe that the people did not support him. Had there been a reforndum on the subject, Edward might have won. The tragedy was repeated in the case of Princess Margaret.

Offline mcdnab

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #663 on: January 15, 2009, 10:44:34 AM »
Eric I don't doubt for one minute that the King had considerable support from ordinary people. There are numerous letters in the Windsor Archives and the PRO from people about it expressing their support and most people had had quite enough of Baldwin and his ageing government. But those letters and records are not a majority. Public opinion had had little time to form given that the British Press had censored any mention of Mrs Simpson until the Bishop of Bradford's "recall to religion" speech (widely misinterpreted as an attack on Edward VIII's relationship with Wallis) and that the subsequent crisis lasted such a short time in the public spotlight. It is therefore difficult to get an accurate portrayal of public opinion.
On the other hand we also have the "number" of unpleasant letters that the Duchess of Gloucester received after she and the Duke met the Windsor's in France in 1938 (another attempt to test public opinion).
It is also worth bearing in mind that for twenty years the British public (and the greater public in the dominions) had been treated to newspaper and newsreel reports that were glowing in their flattery of the Prince of Wales and glossed over everything that showed him in a rather less flattering way (which is why so many of his own and his father's courtiers didn't think much of him). His fondness for other men's wives (Freda Dudley Ward and Thelma Furness spring to mind) his pleasure in Cafe Society and his rather low boredom threshold (which for a future King Emperor was a problem - given that the role largely embraces a life of ritual boredom) had all made his parents, the court and significant sections of the government doubt his sincerity and his understanding of the constitutional role he was expected to fill.

On a personal note when we were doing this at school (more years than i care to remember) our teacher asked us to visit our elderly relatives who'd lived through the thirties and ask them about a variety of topics from the depression, to appeasement, to the abdication and the outbreak of war. My grandmother and her sisters  who in the thirties were young women living in Yorkshire were still 50 years later utterly opposed to the idea that their King should marry a divorcee - true we found a more diverse range of opinions when we visited a local Old People's home. I suspect that opinion was far more divided than official records allow.

I have little doubt that quite a number of politicians were glad to see the back of Edward VIII - the released records of Baldiwn's conversations with the King do suggest that Baldwin pushed him into a position where Edward was forced to tell the prime minister he intended to marry Mrs S, when she were free, therefore obliging him to accept his Government's advice on the matter. However it is also clear that Edward up to the last was prepared to use unconstitutional methods to get his own way on the matter - there was a lack of trust on both sides which were hampered by Baldwin's rigid view (backed by his cabinet) that the public wouldn't accept a "Queen with two living husbands" and Edward's view "that his private life was his private life". The Cabinet and Baldwin's attitude had been hardened by the way in which Edward behaved in his official duties following his father's death - his late hours, his obvious boredom on official occassions, his preferrences for certain foreign dignitaries over others, his dictats about foreign policy, the way he treated his staff, the way he'd treated his father's servants etc - all of that to a certain extent undermined and weakened his position as king when it came to the issue of marrying Mrs Simpson.

Was it a tragedy that he was forced to abdicate - we'll never really know what kind of King he would have made or what kind of Queen, Wallis would have made - no children though which would have made his reign almost pointless - his brother might have lived long enough to succeed him without the pressures of the Second World War which encouraged him to smoke and drink more either way his eventual heir would have been the present Queen. He had many strong points as did she - neither of them were particularly intellectual though and Edward like the rest of his family could suffer from extreme prejudices. One problem would have been the area of foreign policy in the lead up to the Second World War, he'd received a dressing down from his father over interferring in politics by giving a speech saying the Germans should be "our friends" a few years earlier, though I don't share the idea that either of them were particularly pro-nazi though he was pro-german. (dating to his visit to Germany in 1913 and like many of his generation a determination to avoid a repeat of the carnage of the 1st World War.) We might have had less pomp and circumstance a bit less of the archaic traditions of his father's court, but we'd have had a few redecorations of the Royal Palaces and a more Cafe Society circle than the Aristocratic Country House style of court that George VI and Queen Elizabeth created for themselves.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #664 on: January 15, 2009, 03:53:43 PM »
Indeed. I think the situation wasnot as simple as it was. The people at court and government got it wrong. I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King. In Denmark and Russia, they have the morganetic marriages.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #665 on: January 15, 2009, 06:36:09 PM »
I don't think one should judge him too harshly. He had wanted to wed the woman he loved. What iswrong with that. The people actually supported him ,but the politions said no. It was a coup.

It could be said that his responsibility was to put duty before personal happiness.  Not an easy thing.  The people supported Edward in that they wanted him to remain their King but did they really want him with Mrs. Simpson as future Queen?  And did they really know at the time that his devotion to duty was not what it should have been?  Very doubtful.

You see I really think, aside from the whole nature of the British monarchy, it's basically a case of him giving up a job he only kind of wanted for his girlfriend. That's really what being king is, a job. A glamorous if rather difficult job you get because you happened to have been born into the right family at the right time.


People do things like that all the time. My mother is a modeling agent who once placed one of her girls in Paris. She signed a contract for five years and a lot of money from a French agency and my mom was expecting to get a nice mother agency fee off of it. A week after she left she found out her boyfriend couldn't get out of his job and come with her. So she took the next flight home and basically abandoned this really great opportunity that would've made her rich and famous so she could be with him. The got married shortly after and my mother found it really ironic that he ended up leaving her two years later for a younger and prettier model he met on a trip to New York. Random OT story aside, this was a girl who had dreamed her whole life of being a model and gone to hundreds of auditions and basically starved herself to achieve it. I highly doubt Edward VIII ever wanted to be king that much.

In fact, I'd bet if they had some sort of American Idol style auditions to be king Edward probably would've shown up ten minutes before they started seeing people, seen how long the line was, shrugged, and then walked away. If Edward VIII didn't believe in the whole divine right/royal duty thing his mother felt so strongly about then he probably just saw it not only as a job but as a job he didn't even want enough to make sacrifices for.

Throughout history there have been hundreds of pretenders to various thrones and succession wars where more than one person desperately wants to be king, but interestingly enough if you look at all the men who have been designated heir to the throne from birth and are expected to take over without conflict, most of them don't seem to want it all that much, especially in recent years.


Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #666 on: January 16, 2009, 09:19:55 AM »
Yes the most recent being Prince William.

Leuchtenberg

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #667 on: January 16, 2009, 10:34:02 AM »
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Robert_Hall

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #668 on: January 16, 2009, 10:45:42 AM »
And, they were hopeless "party people", not at all conservative, self effacing, humble devotees of public service.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #669 on: January 16, 2009, 10:56:42 AM »
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Actually, Wallis's letters and the accounts of her friends at the time indicate she really didn't want to be Queen. She didn't want the responsibility. She would have rather been a morganatic wife, which wasn't legal in England, or just an official mistress, which the morals of the time wouldn't stand for and Edward didn't want anyway. Not to say she would've turned down the crown had it been offered to her, but I think she would've rather been with the king not as a queen that been with the king as queen.

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #670 on: January 16, 2009, 01:38:03 PM »
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Beautifully put Leuchtenberg.
For the Duke to refer to his own mother as an "ice-veined bitch" shows what a ghastly man he was. The only good thing he ever did was abdicate and be replaced by a wonderful King & Queen.
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline Grace

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #671 on: January 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM »
Have to agree here with Eddieboy.  Edward exiting to make way for the stable (at least publicly) and dutiful King George VI and Queen Elizabeth was the best thing he ever did!

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #672 on: January 16, 2009, 06:25:43 PM »
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Beautifully put Leuchtenberg.
For the Duke to refer to his own mother as an "ice-veined bitch" shows what a ghastly man he was.

Well, to be fair, Queen Mary wasn't a very good mother to him and they didn't have a good relationship. She always took her husband's side over her son's and she refused to even meet Wallis Simpson. Part of it was the way she was brought up and she just wasn't very maternal, but you can see why he might've had bad feelings about her.



Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #673 on: January 16, 2009, 06:35:53 PM »

For the Duke to refer to his own mother as an "ice-veined bitch" shows what a ghastly man he was.

It does show that Edward was ill mannered, but for a man to be moved to such language also shows that Mary was a witch of a mother. As has been stated before, Mary would never have been nominated for "mother of the year". She could have met Edward and Wallis half way, but her willful and stubborn insistence on 'her way or the highway' created an unnecessary rift that was regrettable.
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Offline Grace

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #674 on: January 16, 2009, 09:35:41 PM »
It does show that Edward was ill mannered, but for a man to be moved to such language also shows that Mary was a witch of a mother. As has been stated before, Mary would never have been nominated for "mother of the year". She could have met Edward and Wallis half way, but her willful and stubborn insistence on 'her way or the highway' created an unnecessary rift that was regrettable.

No, she wouldn't have been nominated for "mother of the year" but she was no witch either.  How could she have met Edward and Wallis "half way"?  The whole abdication saga occurred because there WAS no half way in the situation.  Queen Mary knew from the outset that Wallis Simpson was a totally unsuitable match for her son in his position - it was nothing to do with "her way or the highway".  I'm sure you would be aware that she did meet up with her son some years after his marriage but the royal family as a whole did not accept Wallis and Mary's duty was always there first and foremost.  That did NOT mean she didn't care about her children.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 09:38:03 PM by Grace »