Author Topic: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)  (Read 535582 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1125 on: August 24, 2011, 08:37:57 AM »
Chris

I agree. Plus the Windsors, if they'd had an ounce of common sense, would have realised that they had caused major ructions for the monarchy, and could not expect to be treated as though nothing had happened.

Ann

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1126 on: August 24, 2011, 09:28:59 AM »
I don't believe that Wallis was entitled to an HRH.  What would have been "rightful" about it?

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1127 on: August 24, 2011, 09:48:07 AM »
Alixz

I wrote an academic article some time ago on royal titles in the UK, and went into this in some detail. If I can find an electronic link I will post it.

 My conclusion is that the usage of Prince/Princess and HRH is something that developed over time in somewhat haphazard fashion, and was only rationalised by George V in 1917. The whole business is governed by the royal prerogrative and operates according to the 1917 Royal Warrant, and, in the case of brides, established custom, but there is scope for the exercise of discretion. The issue of whether a woman marrying into the royal family should be an HRH didn't arise until the late Queen Mother married the future George VI in 1923, since previous royal brides since Anne Hyde had been HRH themselves. It was announced in 1923 that on her marriage Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon would become 'HRH the Duchess of York', but that was simply a matter of courtesy. On that basis, Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott then became HRH the Duchess of Gloucester on her marriage (Princess Marina was already HRH in her own right). In my view, established custom is subject to exeptions, and there was nothing to prevent George VI from forbidding HRH to the Duchess of Windsor. Indeed, since the Duke of Windsor had been required to abdicate because the Duchess was not a suitable person to be Queen, it would have been rather odd to treat her as a 'normal' royal bride.

Ann

CHRISinUSA

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1128 on: August 24, 2011, 12:33:19 PM »
Regarding the future Queen Mother, the official announcement made in the Times of April 28, 1923 stated:

"It is officially announced that, in accordance with the settled general rule that a wife takes the status of her husband, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon on her marriage has become Her Royal Highness the Duchess of York, with the status of a Princess."

Ann - I wasn't surprised by the "HRH" or "Duchess of York" part of this, but am a bit confused by the "status of a princess" part.  From what I understood, "princess" was reserved solely to the daughter of a king - or the daughter of the son of a king.  Brides of a prince (who were not already a princess themselves) did not become princesses on marriage, but merely adopted the style by courtesy (indicated by being Princess X - where X is their husband's first name).  Accordingly, Diana and Sarah were never princesses.  I guess the use of the word "status" confuses me.  Any insight to offer?



Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1129 on: August 24, 2011, 01:09:18 PM »
Chris

I think the word 'status' is a bit confusing in this context, but this was an announcement in The Times and couched in non-technical language. I would agree that royal brides (who marry grandsons of kings as well as sons) acquire HRH merely by courtesy and are 'Princess William' or whatever, rather than 'Princess Katharine'. If they remarry after being widowed or divorced, they lose the courtesy title and gain the appropriate style from the second husband.

According to Philip Ziegler, one reason that George VI and the royal household didn't want the Duchess of Windsor to be HRH was that they thought the marriage was unlikely to last, raising the spectre of a divorced Duchess of Windsor causing yet more embarrassment to the monarchy (maybe they anticipated Sarah Ferguson!)

Ann

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1130 on: August 24, 2011, 02:35:39 PM »
I think the trust between the brothers fell apart on David's wedding day when nobody in the Royal Family was allowed to attend his wedding and Wallis was denied her rightful HRH. He cried. That is cruel to do that on one's wedding day. If his brother could cheat him out of that, I don't think David felt bad about squeezing money from the Royal Family.

I agree with Chris--whatever one thinks about denying Wallis the HRH ('rightful' is debatable since it's up to the monarch and not a God-given right) David broke trust first. He kept his brother out of the loop until practically the last minute then dropped the awesome responsibility of being monarch with Europe already presenting storm clouds. He was practically walking to the microphone for his abdication speech before he let his brother in on what was going to happen.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1131 on: August 24, 2011, 03:28:46 PM »
Just as Diana was Diana, Princess of Wales and not Princess Diana.  She was HRH but lost it upon the divorce.

In Diana's case, though, she was the mother of the future king (William) where as Wallis was the mother of no one and if she had had children, they would not have been in line for the throne.

I recently saw a documentary about Royal Weddings and how much Queen Elizabeth was against divorce because of Wallis and her uncle (and the traditional view of divorce from the age she grew up in).  That was the reason given for her wait and see attitude over the divorce of her sister Margaret (from Anthony Armstrong Jones) and also the divorces of Andrew and Charles.  Of course Anne also divorced her husband (Captain Mark Phillips).

There was also Margaret's relationship with Group Captain Townsend.  Wasn't Townsend married and needed a divorce to marry Margaret?

Poor Elizabeth what a normal abnormal dysfunctional family she has surrounding her.

Offline jehan

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1132 on: August 24, 2011, 06:59:08 PM »


There was also Margaret's relationship with Group Captain Townsend.  Wasn't Townsend married and needed a divorce to marry Margaret?

Poor Elizabeth what a normal abnormal dysfunctional family she has surrounding her.

No, Townshend was already divorced (in 1952)  when he and Margaret became interested in one another.  And he had been the "innocent party" too- his first wife left him for another man.

This makes their position all that much more tragic- I wouldn't call it dysfunctional at that point.
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

feodorovna

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1133 on: August 25, 2011, 12:24:02 AM »
Last night there was a very revealing programme concerning letters written by Wallis to Ernest whic corroborated my belief that she wasn't in love with David-indeed was doing her best to extricate herself from him. She and Ernest both relished their rise but referred to the reason for it as "Peter Pan"-very apt-and poked gentle fun at him. She continued to write to Ernest, for two years after her marriage, letters which indicate that she had had a happier life with him than with David and wondering how she had ever managed to find herself in such a situation. One thing is certain, over the next thirty years she showed by her own sence of duty, how derelict David had been in his.

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1134 on: August 25, 2011, 01:24:22 AM »
By 'sense of duty' you presumably mean the Duchess sticking with the Duke?

Ann

feodorovna

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1135 on: August 25, 2011, 02:20:17 AM »
Yes, Ann, exactly that!!....and have just seen my incorrect "sense"-slip of the finger!!!
Jane

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1136 on: August 25, 2011, 04:30:29 AM »
The abdication was less than 20 years in the past and the Windsors were very much alive when Princess Margaret sought to marry Peter Townsend. Politically (using the word in a wider sense) it would have been quite impossible for the Queen to allow the marriage in the ordinary way - just think of the accusations of double standards that would have followed! Bear in mind that the Queen's children were then very young and Princess Margaret was third in line to the throne and first in line to be regent should the Queen die.

A pity really - Townsend was a thoroughly decent man.

Ann

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1137 on: August 25, 2011, 08:13:22 AM »
Why would Margaret have been first in line to regent? Why wouldn't that job have fallen to the Queen Mother? Or Prince Philip?  Is there a written line of succession for regents or wouldn't have been that the best person for the job would have been chosen.

Victoria's mother expected to be regent if William IV died before Victoria was 18.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:17:34 AM by Alixz »

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1138 on: August 25, 2011, 08:20:44 AM »
I have said before and I still think that Wallis didn't have much choice about sticking with the Duke.  Wallis would have been black listed even "blacker" than she already was if, after all of the commotion caused by the abdication and subsequent marriage, she didn't stand by her "duty".

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1139 on: August 25, 2011, 08:26:13 AM »
The Regency Act 1937 (still in force) provides that if a minor succeeds to the throne the first person in the line of succession over the age of 21 shall be regent. In 1952-53 that was Princess Margaret. The Regency Act 1953 then added that if one of Elizabeth II's children succeeded as a minor, the Duke of Edinburgh could be regent. I wonder if the Townsend situation had any bearing on the 1953 Act (it received the Royal Assent and came into effect on 19 November 1953).

The Regency Act 1830 provided for Victoria's mother to be regent if Victoria succeeded under 18.

Ann