Author Topic: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)  (Read 535577 times)

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Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1140 on: August 25, 2011, 08:48:43 AM »
I don't think David drop the ball first. He was very forthright about his abdication, but whatever he believe would happen after that was mistaken. The Royal Family closed ranks at Wallis, who was actually the one backed into the corner by David. He wanted her at all cost, whereas she was ready to do her duty and disappear like any good mistress. She who had such a turbulent life (from Baltimore to China) and a woman of the world realized when the game was up. David however didn't. In his childish & selfish mind, all should revolved around him and his needs. So when the Royal Family did the HRH trick on him, he went to Berlin and Wallis got treated like "real royalty". The Nazis gave her as warm as welcome as Princess Paul of Yugoslavia, ironically the sister of the Duke of Kent who refused to receive her.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1141 on: August 25, 2011, 08:50:53 AM »
Last night there was a very revealing programme concerning letters written by Wallis to Ernest whic corroborated my belief that she wasn't in love with David-indeed was doing her best to extricate herself from him. She and Ernest both relished their rise but referred to the reason for it as "Peter Pan"-very apt-and poked gentle fun at him. She continued to write to Ernest, for two years after her marriage, letters which indicate that she had had a happier life with him than with David and wondering how she had ever managed to find herself in such a situation. One thing is certain, over the next thirty years she showed by her own sence of duty, how derelict David had been in his.

I quoted some of them on page 72 of this thread. The Daily Mail had a lengthier article on it--the link was provided--but I gave the bulk of the quotes the article published.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:52:40 AM by grandduchessella »
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Alixz

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1142 on: August 25, 2011, 08:53:17 AM »
Knowing how much the Royal Family was hurt by the abdication of Edward VIII, I wouldn't be surprised if the Regency Act of 1953 was a direct result of the possibility that Princess Margaret might marry a divorced commoner.

If Margaret were to become regent, then Townsend would also have been right there and I am sure that both the Queen Mother and Queen Elizabeth would not have wanted that.  The crown was tarnished by Edward VIII and revitalized by George VI.  But in 1953, as you have said, not enough time had passed for feelings to have quieted down.

It actually made sense for Prince Philip as both Duke of Edinburgh and father of the two minor children that he and Elizabeth had in 1953 would become regent.  Also Philip was a prince in his own right.

Was he every created Prince Consort?

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1143 on: August 25, 2011, 08:54:43 AM »
No, Prince Philip has never been created Prince consort. There are rumours from time to time that he has been offered it and refused.

Ann

Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1144 on: August 25, 2011, 09:29:15 AM »
Do you have the link for that ?

Yes I think Wallis enjoyed the ride and realized in her heart that she would never be Queen or being accepted as his wife. She was worldly enough to know that which is why she never changed herself to become more British (like Madonna, who did a fake Brit accent). She played along with David (Peter Pan)'s fanciful illusion until the moment of truth came.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1145 on: August 26, 2011, 11:21:56 AM »
Alixz

I wrote an academic article some time ago on royal titles in the UK, and went into this in some detail. If I can find an electronic link I will post it.

 My conclusion is that the usage of Prince/Princess and HRH is something that developed over time in somewhat haphazard fashion, and was only rationalised by George V in 1917. The whole business is governed by the royal prerogrative and operates according to the 1917 Royal Warrant, and, in the case of brides, established custom, but there is scope for the exercise of discretion. The issue of whether a woman marrying into the royal family should be an HRH didn't arise until the late Queen Mother married the future George VI in 1923, since previous royal brides since Anne Hyde had been HRH themselves. It was announced in 1923 that on her marriage Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon would become 'HRH the Duchess of York', but that was simply a matter of courtesy. On that basis, Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott then became HRH the Duchess of Gloucester on her marriage (Princess Marina was already HRH in her own right). In my view, established custom is subject to exeptions, and there was nothing to prevent George VI from forbidding HRH to the Duchess of Windsor. Indeed, since the Duke of Windsor had been required to abdicate because the Duchess was not a suitable person to be Queen, it would have been rather odd to treat her as a 'normal' royal bride.

Ann

Surely, then, if Wallis was not deemed suitable as  bride, the simplest and most honest thing thing to do would have been for George VI to refuse permission for the marriage to take place altogether?
It seems to me that the crux of the Duke of Windsor's bitterness was that he had been prepared to consider a morganatic marriage, and this was part of his discussion with Baldwin. Advised that this was not possible in British law, he then abdicated in order that the marriage might take place, only to have his brother perform an action which implied that the marriage was morganatic after all. One can argue over whether an unequal marriage was the status implied by withholding the "HRH" from one partner, but this was the reasoning behind the bitterness. As you know, other legal experts (writing in 1936, and themselves close to the court) did not agree with you, and were of the view that George VI had no right to withhold this style. This was presumably the material that informed the Duke's opinion and subsequent bitterness. (See Susan Williams book "The People's King" for examples)

BTW, here's the link to your article (I assume - googling your name and "Windsor and "Royal Highness" brings this up); as I'm not at work I can't access it, but others may be able to: -

http://www.springerlink.com/content/c9n278u260r5473q/
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 11:39:18 AM by Janet Ashton »
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Robert_Hall

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1146 on: August 26, 2011, 12:50:09 PM »
IMO, Queen Victoria was a bit of a  hypocrite and snob when it came to royal marriages.  Did she not utter the famous "we do NOT have morganatic" ?  Yet was against marriages into the most plush RF in Europe- the Romanovs?

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1147 on: August 26, 2011, 01:17:50 PM »
Did Queen Victoria say that? I recall reading that the german royal family would have never considered Queen Mary as a suitable bride for any Prince due to her morganatic lineage but Queen Victoria was all for her marrying the Duke of Clarence & later George V. Also look at Queen Victorias support for the marriages of Victoria of Hesse, Princess Louise & Princess Beatrice!
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Robert_Hall

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1148 on: August 26, 2011, 01:30:10 PM »
That was what I was pointing out, Eddie.. Her version of "morganatic" was different than the Gotha, it seems  And you are quite correct- she allowed marriages   that would have then been seen as  "unequal" but disapproved of others  [but did not forbid, as far as I know] . I forget which book specifically quoted her comment,  but I have read it more than once.
 Who knows what she would have thought of the Windsor's and their  marriage !  That  could have bean a circus indeed !!!

Offline jehan

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1149 on: August 26, 2011, 03:38:27 PM »
IMO, Queen Victoria was a bit of a  hypocrite and snob when it came to royal marriages.  Did she not utter the famous "we do NOT have morganatic" ?  Yet was against marriages into the most plush RF in Europe- the Romanovs?

I thought that she didn't want her granddaughters marrying into Russia not because the family wasn't "good enough", but because Russia was a very dangerous and difficult country for royalty in the late 19th century.  The assassination of Alexander ll and various government officials must have reinforced this feeling. She certainly liked Nicholas ll personally (and had had a bit of a "crush" on Alexander '' in her youth).

And of course, she was right.  Her granddaughters did not fare well there.  I don't see the hypocrisy, just worrying about the welfare of her family.
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CHRISinUSA

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1150 on: August 26, 2011, 04:23:45 PM »
Surely, then, if Wallis was not deemed suitable as  bride, the simplest and most honest thing thing to do would have been for George VI to refuse permission for the marriage to take place altogether? It seems to me that the crux of the Duke of Windsor's bitterness was that he had been prepared to consider a morganatic marriage, and this was part of his discussion with Baldwin. Advised that this was not possible in British law, he then abdicated in order that the marriage might take place, only to have his brother perform an action which implied that the marriage was morganatic after all. One can argue over whether an unequal marriage was the status implied by withholding the "HRH" from one partner, but this was the reasoning behind the bitterness. As you know, other legal experts (writing in 1936, and themselves close to the court) did not agree with you, and were of the view that George VI had no right to withhold this style.

A few separate matters seem to be merged together above.  First, since there is no morganatic marriage in British law, there can be no link between morganatic marriage and the status of HRH.  That may have been practice in the rest of Europe, but not Britain. 

Second, His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936 specifically excluded Edward VIII from the provisions of the Royal Marriages Act 1772 upon his abdication; George VI therefore had no legal authority to refuse permission for the marriage. 

Third, yes, some scholars argued that George VI had no right to deny Wallis HRH.  However, the prevailing conclusion held that granting (or withholding) HRH is entirely at the pleasure of the Sovereign. 

Of course Edward was bitter over the matter - he didn't get what he wanted.  Frankly, that's just too bad..... it was his own actions that launched the ship.  George simply steered it to the best of his abilities afterward.

Robert_Hall

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1151 on: August 26, 2011, 04:31:12 PM »
As usual, Chris, you put it precisely

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1152 on: August 26, 2011, 05:11:28 PM »


A few separate matters seem to be merged together above.  First, since there is no morganatic marriage in British law, there can be no link between morganatic marriage and the status of HRH.  That may have been practice in the rest of Europe, but not Britain. 

The issue, as you know, was one of the perceived equality of the marriage, regardless of what name one puts on it.

Second, His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936 specifically excluded Edward VIII from the provisions of the Royal Marriages Act 1772 upon his abdication; George VI therefore had no legal authority to refuse permission for the marriage.  

Thanks for the reminder of this point.

Third, yes, some scholars argued that George VI had no right to deny Wallis HRH.  However, the prevailing conclusion held that granting (or withholding) HRH is entirely at the pleasure of the Sovereign.  

That's one way of putting it. In truth the tone of the debate was very much: "the King wants this done; now let's see how we can do it."

Of course Edward was bitter over the matter - he didn't get what he wanted.  Frankly, that's just too bad..... it was his own actions that launched the ship.  George simply steered it to the best of his abilities afterward.

Whether it's "too bad" or not doesn't concern me, though. A pity that this seems to come down to a question of "sides".

Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Alixz

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1153 on: August 26, 2011, 07:03:00 PM »
I received Greg King's book on Wallis yesterday and am already about 1/4 of the way into it.  So far, I haven't found any new information or any "taking sides" by Greg in his writing.

I am surprised at his description of George of Kent as a homosexual and that David had to straighten out "things" for George in Paris when he was young and before he married Marina.  It seems odd that the Greek Royal family would let Marina marry him after such a scandal.

So far the story of Wallis is a telling of her life and her very bad marriage to Win Spencer, her world travels, then Ernest Simpson and of course Thelma Lady Furness telling her to "look after David" while Thelma went to the US for the custody trial of her sister Gloria in the matter of her daughter Gloria who is CBS news anchor Anderson Cooper's mother. (Greg doesn't say that because he wrote the book a long time ago and Anderson was very young when the book came out, I just put that in because I find it an interesting fact.)

Well, David is now king, and I will be getting back to the book tonight.

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
« Reply #1154 on: August 27, 2011, 02:11:39 AM »
Poor, misguided Lady Thelma! I can't help liking her. Apparently the Duke never spoke to her again I believe?

I've always loved the pronunciation of Thelma Furness's name! Not Thelma as "Thelma & Louise" but pronounced "Tel-ma" Very glamorous.
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