Discussions about Russian History > Imperial Russian History
Russian Flags c1900
Mike Blake:
I have reposted this from the Uniforms etc forum as it elicited no responses. Here is what I have pieced together so far on flags used by the Russian forces in the Boxer Rebellion in 1900-1. I would be grateful for comments/suggestions/corrections, please.
`… and I hoisted the Russian Flag at the Chien Men side [of the Tarter City Wall].' - Private Oscar Upham USMC
Contemporary observers mention the use of flags by all the Allies to mark captured buildings etc. This was probably the national flag as it would be more obviously Russian than one of the military designating flags or regimental Colours, and regimental Colours were too precious to be used for that kind of thing. Sailors might have used the St Andrew's cross Russian naval jack. [Hillman]
Certainly a Russian flag was used alongside a British Union flag and a Stars and Stripes to show the relief force that the legation defenders were still alive, as described in the quote above. Upham does not say what the flag was but a more recent account states that it was the `…the Imperial eagle of Russia', but gives no source for this specific identification [Preston]
If this is correct the contenders would appear to be a the Imperial Standard of the Czar or the flag of a Russian Ambassador or Minister Plenipotentiary. The former was yellow with the black double headed Imperial eagle and various shield with coats of arms. The latter was a red field with white diagonal, horizontal and vertical crosses with a blue St Andrew's cross on the diagonal white, and the upper left canton yellow with the black double headed Imperial eagle as on the Czar's standard. [Hulme] I don't know if it is likely the Imperial Standard would have been in a Russian legation? Clearly the flag for the ambassador should have been, and so could have been available for use?
Too further complicate matters, as has been posted elswhere in this forum, in 1858 a black/golden yellow/white horizontal tricolor had been adopted as the Russian national civil flag. Black and yellow were the Imperial colours; the white stripe was added to distinguish this flag from the Imperial Austrian "Reich" and war flag, which was a black-yellow horizontal bicolour. The black/yellow/white flag was highly unpopular and in 1883 the civil ensign, a white/blue/red horizontal tricolor, was adopted as an alternate national flag. However, the black-orange-red was not officially abolished, so that Russia had two civil flags from 1883 to 1914. [Gregg] So the flag raised could have been either of these two?
Can anyone can help me with better information as to which flags were used, please? Thanks
Mike
David_Pritchard:
--- Quote from: Mike Blake on August 31, 2006, 05:27:53 AM ---Too further complicate matters, as has been posted elswhere in this forum, in 1858 a black/golden yellow/white horizontal tricolor had been adopted as the Russian national civil flag. Black and yellow were the Imperial colours; the white stripe was added to distinguish this flag from the Imperial Austrian "Reich" and war flag, which was a black-yellow horizontal bicolour.
--- End quote ---
I am not certain that the above statement is true. Black, Yellow(Gold) and White(Silver) are the livery colours of the Imperial House of Romanov. These same colours were also used by the late Rurikid dynasty Tsars such as Ivan IV and his successors.
David
David_Pritchard:
--- Quote from: Mike Blake on August 31, 2006, 05:27:53 AM ---the flag of a Russian Ambassador or Minister Plenipotentiary.
--- End quote ---
Again I disagree with your descriptions of these two flags. According to the book Flags of the Maritime Nations published by the the United States Navy Department in 1899, the flag of a Russian Ambassador is as follows: on the white, blue and red tricolour, a white canton in the upper hoist charged with the black Russian Imperial Eagle; the flag of a Russian Minister Plenipotentiary is as follows: on the white, blue and red tricolour, a white rectangle at center point charged with the black Russian Imperial Eagle.
David
David_Pritchard:
--- Quote from: Mike Blake on August 31, 2006, 05:27:53 AM ---The black/yellow/white flag was highly unpopular and in 1883 the civil ensign, a white/blue/red horizontal tricolor, was adopted as an alternate national flag. However, the black-orange-red was not officially abolished, so that Russia had two civil flags from 1883 to 1914.
--- End quote ---
I started two different threads in January 2006 that might be of interest to you. The black/yellow/white flag while still legal is no where to be found in any of the photographs posted on these threads. I suspect that the flag used during the Boxer Rebellion by the Russian diplomats was either the white/blue/red tricolour or the personal flag of the most senior Russian official within barricades of the foreign legations.
Imperial Street Decorations in Saint Petersburg
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,6046.0.html
Imperial Russian Street Decorations in Moscow
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,6047.0.html
Mike Blake:
David
1) the colours black/yellow/white: your reasons sounds more logical, I agree. I had seen the connection but used the description from the source 'as found', but I wonder why that particular idea was arrived at given the Romanov colours?
2) excellent. My source was F Edward Hulme, The Flags of the World, London: Warne, undated [but before the death of Queen Victoria, so fairly contemporay] - I do not know how reliable it is, frankly. The source of the other versions you give sounds impeccable - they would need to get it right to avoid diplomatic incidents, one imagines! I have a Russian source which says the Russian representative in the Peking legation was "...extraordinary envoy and plenipotentiary minister councillor of state Girs, son of the former Russian Foreign Minister. He was a hero of of the Russo-Turkish War, having been awarded the soldier's George Cross." So does that make his flag the Minister Plenipotentiary? Either way it would explain the 'Russian flag' and the 'eagle' references.
I will take a look at your other threads.
Thanks for your very helpful input - I will cite the book [are those the full publishing details?] and your, 'David Pritchard', provision of the information, if that's OK?
Regards
Mike
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