Author Topic: Plantagenet Bastards  (Read 24386 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Plantagenet Bastards
« on: September 03, 2006, 12:46:20 PM »
Here's a thread for the (many) bastard children of Plantagenet monarchs, including those of Henry II's father Geoffrey. :)

Geoffrey of Anjou's Bastards
by Adelaide of Angers:
1. Hameline de Warenne (1129-1202). He married Isabella de Warenne, who had previously been married to King Stephen's son William, and was made Earl of Surrey. In Sharon Penman's books, he's depicted as being close to Henry II - does anyone know if this is true?
by unknown mothers:
2. Mary, Abbess of Shaftesbury (died c.1216)
3. Emma. She married Guy, Sire de Laval, and secondly David ap Owen, Prince of East Gwynnedd.

Henry II's Bastards
by a woman called Ikenai:
1. Geoffrey, Archbishop of York (1151-1212).
2. William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (died 1226). He married the daughter of William Fitzpatrick, Earl of Salisbury. Does anyone know if he was close to his half-siblings? Was it one of them who made him an earl, or was it Henry?
3. Peter.
by Alix of France, daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, at the time betrothed to the future Richard I:
4, 5, 6 and 7. Various children who died young. How did Eleanor feel about this liason???
by Nesta:
8. Morgan, Bishop of Durham.
by Alice de Porhoet:
9. Child, nothing much known.
by unknown mothers:
10. Matilda, Abbess of Barking.
11. Hugh of Wells, Bishop of Lincoln.
12. Richard.

Richard I's Bastards
by Joan de St Pol:
1. Fulk.
by an unknown mother:
2. Philip, Lord of Cognac. Perhaps married Amelia of Cognac.

King John's Bastards
by a woman called Suzanne, possibly a sister of the Earl of Surrey:
1. Richard Fitzjohn, Baron of Chilham (died 1242/53). He married Rohese of Dover.
by Clementina, wife of Henry Pinel:
2. Joan (died 1237). She married Llwelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of Wales. She's the subject of Penman's novel 'Here Be Dragons' and Barbara Erskine's novel 'Child of the Phoenix' is about her daughter Eleyne.
by Hawise:
3. Oliver (died 1290).
by unknown mothers:
4. Osbert Gifford.
5. Geoffrey Fitzroy (died 1205).
6. John Fitzjohn (died 1242).
7. Odo or Eudo Fitzroy.
8. Henry.
9. Richard, Constable of Wallingford Castle.
10. Matilda, Abbess of Barkin.
11. Isabella.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2006, 01:02:11 PM »
Edward I's Bastards
by an unknown mother:
1. John Botetourt, Lord of Mendlesham (1265-1324). He married Matilda, daughter of Thomas Fitzoates. According to Weir, his existence is 'subject to some doubt'.

Edward II's Bastard
by an unknown mother:
1. Adam (c.1310-after 1322).

Edward III's Bastards
by Alice Perrers:
1. John de Southeray (1364/5-after 1383). He was knighted in 1377 and married Matilda, called a sister of Lord Henry Percy.
2. Joan. She married Robert Skerne.
3. Joan or Jane. She married Richard Northland.

Richard II's Bastards
1. Richard Maudelyn, though Weir says this is unlikely.

Henry IV's Bastards
1. Edmund Labourde (died young in 1401). Weir says there's no contemporary evidence for it.

Edward IV's Bastards
by Eleanor Talbot or Butler:
1. Edward de Wigmore (died young in 1468).
by Elizabeth Lucy or Elizabeth Shore:
2. Arthur Plantagenet, Viscount Lisle (1461-1542). He married firstly Elizabeth Grey, Baroness Lisle and secondly Honora Grenville. Didn't this pair get in trouble with Henry VIII about something??
3. Elizabeth. She perhaps married Thomas Lumley and was the ancestress of the dukes of Newcastle and earls of Scarborough.
by an unknown mother:
4. Grace (aive in 1492).

Richard III's Bastards
by known mothers:
1. John of Gloucester, Captain of Calais (c.1470-1499). Richard made him Captain of Calais when he was 15, referring to him as 'our dear bastard son'. Henry VII didn't imprison him, he gave him a pension of £20. But he was apparently executed or killed in 1491 or 1499.
2. Richard Plantagenet (1469-1550).
3. Katherine. She married William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke. He had previously been married to Mary Woodville.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2006, 02:12:49 PM »
Helen/Elen/Eleyne daughter of Joan (bastard daughter of King John) and LLewellyn ap Iorwerth came close to the throne of Scotland through her marriage to John "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon.

Isn't it interesting that the notorious womaniser, Edward IV, had so few bastards? His daughter Grace accompanied Elizabeth Woodville's body at her funeral, which would appear to signify a closeness between the two women ???

the evidence for the existence of Richard Plantagenet, bastard son of the very noble Richard III is tenuous to say the least. ;) Also, he most definately didnot have 7 bastards (R III) as is sometimes quoted.
Member of the Richard III Society

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2006, 03:54:16 PM »


Isn't it interesting that the notorious womaniser, Edward IV, had so few bastards? His daughter Grace accompanied Elizabeth Woodville's body at her funeral, which would appear to signify a closeness between the two women ???


Penman depicts Grace at being at Elizabeth's deathbed. Maybe Elizabeth knew that raising her husband's bastards with her own children was sure to meet his approval?  ???
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2006, 01:31:34 AM »
Quote
Henry II's Bastards
by Alix of France, daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, at the time betrothed to the future Richard I:
4, 5, 6 and 7. Various children who died young. How did Eleanor feel about this liason???

you must be mistaken for the following reasons:
1. if alix was eleanor's daughter that would make her richard's sister. no pope would approve of this marriage, no-one would. i think alix was a daughter of louis' second marriage, i believe his second wife was adele de champagne.
2. there is no proof that this affair actually happened, let alone that there were children. there are plenty of rumours, and i think there must have been something to it, but there is no actual proof.
3. where's rosamund? the most famous of henry's mistresses? are you sure you're not confusing her children with alix'?

Offline Kimberly

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2006, 02:41:44 AM »
According to one genealogy site (the peerage);
Rosamund Clifford was the mother of ...Peter
                                                    ...Geoffrey Longespee
                                                    ...William Longespee.
It also acknowledges that Alice de France was the mother of one "Daughter d'Anjou," 1150-1198. Henry being the father.
Alison Weir states that the above offspring were the children of Ikenai, a "common prostitute" (but more likely the daughter of a knight). She also states that Eleanor and Louis VII of France had 2 daughters, Mary and Alice.
We will probably never know the truth but IMO he was a.....ahem, gentleman of loose morals  ;D
Member of the Richard III Society

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2006, 09:39:08 AM »
Quote
Henry II's Bastards
by Alix of France, daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, at the time betrothed to the future Richard I:
4, 5, 6 and 7. Various children who died young. How did Eleanor feel about this liason???

you must be mistaken for the following reasons:
1. if alix was eleanor's daughter that would make her richard's sister. no pope would approve of this marriage, no-one would. i think alix was a daughter of louis' second marriage, i believe his second wife was adele de champagne.
2. there is no proof that this affair actually happened, let alone that there were children. there are plenty of rumours, and i think there must have been something to it, but there is no actual proof.
3. where's rosamund? the most famous of henry's mistresses? are you sure you're not confusing her children with alix'?

Well then, if I must be mistaken, you must forgive me.  ;) Weir says those children were mothered by 'Alice (1170-1225), daughter of Louis VII, King of France.' So the mistake is mine - she means Louis's daughter with Adele de Champagne. Sorry..
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 09:58:16 AM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Prince_Christopher

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2006, 10:36:57 AM »
It also acknowledges that Alice de France was the mother of one "Daughter d'Anjou," 1150-1198. Henry being the father.


Amy Kelly states in Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four Kings that Henry wanted to start a new family with Alais and declare his brood with Eleanor illegitimate.  She mentions one child of Henry and Alais who did not live.

Offline Kimberly

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2006, 10:37:42 AM »
OK chaps, I think I've solved some confusing info here......Marie (1145-1198) and Alice/Alix (1150-1197/8) were the daughters of Louis VII and Eleanor. Louis and Eleanor were divorced/marriage annulled, in 1152.
Marguerite (1158-1198) and Alys/Alice (1160-?) were the daughters of Louis and his second wife, Constance. It is this Alys who was betrothed to Richard Ist and this Alys who had an affair, and child with Henry II. The primary source for this is Rodger of Hoveden and his "The  Chronicle of Meaux"
Member of the Richard III Society

Alianore

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2006, 11:43:10 AM »
Edward I's Bastards
by an unknown mother:
1. John Botetourt, Lord of Mendlesham (1265-1324). He married Matilda, daughter of Thomas Fitzoates. According to Weir, his existence is 'subject to some doubt'.

Edward II's Bastard
by an unknown mother:
1. Adam (c.1310-after 1322).

Edward III's Bastards
by Alice Perrers:
1. John de Southeray (1364/5-after 1383). He was knighted in 1377 and married Matilda, called a sister of Lord Henry Percy.
2. Joan. She married Robert Skerne.
3. Joan or Jane. She married Richard Northland.

According to every book I've read on Edward I, it's extremely unlikely that John Botetourt was his illegitimate son - though he often appears as such on genealogical sites. 

Edward II's son Adam is very obscure - he's only mentioned in one document, of 1322, as "Ade filio domini Regis bastardo", Adam, bastard son of our lord the king.  He's never mentioned again, and is presumed to have been killed in the Scottish campaign of that year.  He was born sometime between 1305 and 1310.

Nicholas de Litlyngton, Abbot of Westminster 1362-1386, is often described as an illegitimate son of Edward III, which is impossible, as they must have been about the same age!  He was probably the son of Hugh Despenser the Younger.

ilyala

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2006, 01:41:12 AM »
OK chaps, I think I've solved some confusing info here......Marie (1145-1198) and Alice/Alix (1150-1197/8) were the daughters of Louis VII and Eleanor. Louis and Eleanor were divorced/marriage annulled, in 1152.
Marguerite (1158-1198) and Alys/Alice (1160-?) were the daughters of Louis and his second wife, Constance. It is this Alys who was betrothed to Richard Ist and this Alys who had an affair, and child with Henry II. The primary source for this is Rodger of Hoveden and his "The  Chronicle of Meaux"



i knew there was something wrong there  ;D. i've seen this information (about eleanor's daughter being married to henry the young king) in various places, and i was always annoyed at how no-one seemed to think that even in those loose times this could have never happened!

i believe louis had three wives. philip, his most important offspring, was born out of his third marriage (is that adele de champagne? that name somehow is stuck in my mind in connection to louis...). he also had a couple of daughters out of his second marriage.

sorry about the tone but it's just completely weird. as for the liaison between henry and his daughter in law...  i do remember reading that it was never actually proven... but then again i  might be wrong. there's plenty of rumours about it so there must be something to it

Yseult

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2006, 03:39:48 AM »
About the issue of Louis VII:

1) First wife: Eleonor d´Aquitaine. Two daughters:

                                                                     -Marie of France, married to Henry I of Champagne.
                                                                     -Alix of France, married to Theobald V of Blois.

2) Second wife: Constance of Castile, daughter of king Alfonso VII of Castile. Two more daughters:

                                                                     -Marguerite of France, married firstly to Henry the Young of England and
                                                                      married secondly to Bela III king of Hungary.
                                                                     -Adelaide of France or Aelys of France, our Aelys, bethroted to Richard of
                                                                      England, years later married to William Talvas, count of Ponthieu.

3) Third wife: Adele of Champagne. A son, the long-awaited male heritier, and one daughter:

                                                                      -Philippe II Augustus.
                                                                      -Agnes of France. She was bethroted to bizantine emperor Alexius II
                                                                      Comnenus, but she was married firstly to bizantine emperor Andronicus I
                                                                      Conmenus and, secondly, to Theodore Branas.

About Aelys and king Henry II...I think that their relationship was not only a malicious rumor floating in the air. If I´m not wrong, she was a beautiful and gentle princess. Richard refused fiercely to marry her because he was sure that Aelys was the mistress of his father. When Philippe II Augustus urged Richard to marry Aelys because she was from her childhood in the british´s court waiting the wedding, Richard told Philippe II Augustus that he never could share his bed with a woman touched by former king Henry II...and Philippe understood so well the question. Further more, Philippe married Aelys to an insignificant count of Ponthieu because he could not marry her to a great prince when everyone knews what happened between Aelys, Henry and Richard.



Prince_Christopher

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2006, 06:51:41 AM »
About Aelys and king Henry II...I think that their relationship was not only a malicious rumor floating in the air. If I´m not wrong, she was a beautiful and gentle princess. Richard refused fiercely to marry her because he was sure that Aelys was the mistress of his father. When Philippe II Augustus urged Richard to marry Aelys because she was from her childhood in the british´s court waiting the wedding, Richard told Philippe II Augustus that he never could share his bed with a woman touched by former king Henry II...and Philippe understood so well the question. Further more, Philippe married Aelys to an insignificant count of Ponthieu because he could not marry her to a great prince when everyone knews what happened between Aelys, Henry and Richard.



She was ruined after spending most of her early life at Henry's court and coming out of it without a marriage.  In addition to making her his mistress and ruining her as a wife for Richard, Henry used her for her dower lands for many years....she was truly a victim of Henry.

ilyala

  • Guest
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2006, 01:59:19 AM »
it makes you wonder about the status of the women in the 12th century, doesn't it? because in the end, she was a victim, but a willing one. henry could have married her to richard and THEN had his way with her. that would have given her the appearance of respectability.

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Plantagenet Bastards
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2006, 09:41:46 AM »
Anyone know anything about John of Gloucester's death? Weir says he was executed - but if Henry VII was behind it, why did he treat Gloucester leniently at first, and wit till 1499 (or '91) to kill him?  ???
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."