Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?

[helenazar]

It is a more or less accepted view that Catherine of Aragon was telling the truth about the non-consumation of her marriage with her first husband Prince Arthur before he died. Catherine is usually portrayed to be a very pious and truthful woman, someone who would never lie about something like this. I never thought much about this, but recently I read a few books the authors of which did not agree with this view, most notably David Starkey in his "The Six Wives" and Joanna Denny in her 'Anne Boleyn". Starkey argues that Catherine was most certainly capable of lying about her marriage to Arthur because of the immense weight her "virginity" carried when she came in to her second marriage to Henry VIII. The future of her daughter Mary depended on it, and she may have said anything to preserve her daughter's inheritance. Starkey says that there is after all a precedent, early in her marriage Catherine lied to her own father and others about her pregnancy, while she knew she wasn't pregnant, and only told her father the truth when she got pregnant again... Starkey portrays Catherine as a calculating and even manipulative person.

Denny too insists that, contrary to popular belief, Catherine was not a piouos or saintly woman, and could have lied when cornered into a no-win situation. After all, if she admitted the truth, she would have given Henry an easy way of their marriage and her child would be declared a bastard.

I was wondering what kinds of opinions others have about this interesting concept. Thanks!

 

[Katherine_The_O.K.]

I think it's possible- but I also think she was entirely entitled to lie to Henry, as he was, in my opinion, a crazy, violent old man. I can't remember how long she was married to Arthur for, but it's entirely possible- she had only one surviving child with Henry in 20+ years of marriage, I don't think her sex-to-pregnancy ratio was that great, so there's no reason to beleive she didn't have relations with Arthur.

[Prince_Lieven]

It's worth noting that when Starkey was criticised about what he said about Catherine, he immediately back peddled and said she would've been stupid to not be manipulative.  He's violently pro-Anne - he even called her 'easily Henry's most interesting wife' or something.

I just don't think she would have lied. After all, it would have been much easier for her to say so if she wasn't a virgin when she married Henry. Yes, Mary would've been declared illegitimate, but both she and Catherine would have been treated much better. She seems like such a stubborn woman (and so very Catholic) I just don't think she would have lied about it. Only my personal opinion.

[Kimberly]

First off Henry wasnot an "old man" when he married Catherine, he was a golden haired young man, handsome, tall and extremely fit and vigorous.
This question could open up a can of worms with folks here falling into the "yes she did" or "no she didn't"side. Catherine seems to be a popular Queen around these parts .
Personally I think she did consumate her marriage with Arthur....why not, they were both healthy, young and nubile and Catherine would know the importance of getting herslf pregnant with the next heir as soon as possible. Plus they seemed to like each other a lot

I don't think she should be derided for lying either, she was lying (if she was lying ) to protect her beloved child.
Just my tuppence worth.

[Prince_Lieven]

Where's Umigon? I need some support. 

[Kimberly]

Haven't heard from him for a while Liam but Bell is around here somewhere

[helenazar]

Catherine - for the most part - was a sympathetic character, whose predicament most people can relate to. But I guess my question is not about why she lied (if you think she did) and whether she was justified in doing so, but whether  it is probable that she indeed lied and that Henry was "justified" in his claims that she was his brother's "true wife" and therefore their own marriage was "not valid in the eyes of God". Most historians seem to think that there was no way Catherine would lie about this,  something she insisted about even on her deathbed. Some others feel she could have. It seems the same goes for the posters here  .

I am not sure one way or another about her, because even though there is so much written about this woman, for the most part all info seems to be biased either one way or another (just like with her daughter Mary). I could really go either way, so this is why I would like to hear others' opinions.

[Yseult]

I don´t believe that Catherine lied. I share the point of wiew that Antonia Fraser explains in her -wonderful- "Six wives of Henry VIII". Catherine always said that she was a virgin widow, and Henry said the same after their wedding night and during a lot of years...he only changed his words when he wished to break up the marriage and to take as second wife Nan Boleyn. And while the trial about the divorce, Catherine claimed loud and clear that she had marry Henry as a virgin...Henry could not deny her words when they were face to face!.

[Romanov_fan]

I don't think she would have lied. She may not have been the woman she is legend( which historical figure ever is?), but she was an honest person, who didn't dissemble or back down about things. She knew what was right, eveni if she wasn't exactly a catholic saint. She was human, but she was a pious woman, by all accounts. I wonder if she was more tolerant then her daughter Mary or not? Anyway, there is much to suggest that she was a virgin, which accords with what she said herself. There is some evidence to the contrary, of course. I don't think Catherine would intentionally lie, although there are different degrees of virginity...

[Kimberly]

Ok lets turn this discussion around. Why WOULDN'T she have consumated the marriage with Arthur?

[Prince_Lieven]

Well, they were both teenagers, both with little experience of the opposite sex - embarrassment might have set in.  Is it possible Arthur was impotent? Also, it might depend on the definition of 'consummating'. I mean, if Arthur . . . <ahem> wasn't able to ejaculate or something, would that be considered consummation?

[helenazar]

I don't think Catherine would intentionally lie...

Is it possible that she lied *unintentionally*, i.e. convinced herself (and others) that was still a virgin, when in reality she wasn't, just as many years earlier she convinced herself (and others) that she was pregnant, while she wasn't? I think it's certainly possible.

Perhaps Henry himself had no clue because he was very inexperienced at the age of 17, when he first married Catherine, but by the time he was questioned many years later, he didn't want to admit that he had no clue.... In addition, like many dysfunctional people, Henry liked to avoid any kind of confrontations at any cost, even when they were necessary, even "healthy". Remember how he avoided all his "dear ones" (Wolsey, Anne Boleyn, Cromwell, Catherine Howard, etc, etc.) after he had a "falling out" with them before they were executed? Hence, he said nothing when he was confronted by Catherine, which doesn't mean he agreed with what she was saying, especially since it was to be a public confrontation. That's certainly plausible too.

[Yseult]

One more question to discuss...

Do you know the -sad- story of crown prince of Castile and Aragon Juan, brother of our Catherine? Juan was the most loved one, both of his father and his mother, but also of his sisters. They were shocked when he died after six months of his wedding to the beautiful and gentle Margaret of Austria. It´s possibly that Juan died from tuberculosis, but, at this time, people believed that he was died because he had ruined his health sharing so frequently the bed of his lovely wife.

When Catherine married Arthur of Wales, she was a pretty girl aged seventeen. She had a good constitution, she was not weak and sickly. So, I suppose that her parents were not worried about a possibly consummation of her marriage. Of course, they never hurried her...two years without sex were two years without the risk of pregnancies and childbirth. But they were not afraid, I think, about a physical relationship between their daughter and her husband.

Arthur was never a robust child, and he became an unhealthy young man. In order to protect him from suffering the ill-fate of prince Juan, they parents wished to await a long time before a physical consummation of the marriage with Catherine. The news that some people of Catherine´s house sended to the castilian court were that the princess remained as a virgin. Ferdinand of Aragon, an old fox, was convinced about this, and convinced was, also, his clever wife Isabella of Castile.

[ilyala]

i see it this way:

when arthur died, the alliance between britain and spain needed reinforcements. the best way to reinforce it was to get henry to marry catherine. for that catherine needed to be a virgin. so she declared herself a virgin and henry accepted it.

years later, no children but a girl that predicted an insecure future for the tudor dinasty. the spanish alliance was not as necessary. and anne boleyn promised healthy children. henry suddenly decided catherine couldn't have been virgin.

catherine was faced with the idea that she was never married to henry, that her daughter was a bastard and that her whole role as queen would be reduced to dowager princess of wales. so of course she was a virgin. she would have lost everything she held dear in life, including the husband that she was attached to.

my tuppence: we'll never know what happened. everyone declared what was in their best interest to declare, when they had to declare it. in the end maybe arianwen's theory of 'doing stuff but not going all the way' is the right one.

[bell_the_cat]

Just my 2c. Obviously she did lie now and again (and David Starkey shows a couple of occasions when she indulged in what Winston Churchill called "terminological inexactitude"). Only George Washington "never told a lie" - the rest of us aren't so perfect!

Whether she indulged in the " Great Lie"  about her marriage to Arthur, I don't know. I suppose only Arthur and Catherine knew the answer to that. I like Liam's point about her sticking to her story for so long, but once you've started you just get in deeper and deeper, as we all know! (when you lie, I mean!). I think it's probably 50-50 whether the marriage was fully (! ) consummated or not. It could easily be that it wasn't - I've just been reading Antonia Fraser on Marie Antoinette's problems.

So because of Catherine's general good character. I would give her the benefit of the doubt!