Author Topic: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?  (Read 81770 times)

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helenazar

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2006, 02:33:49 PM »
Oh lordy, that letter. Written to Henry as she was dying, it is absolutely heartbreaking. It gives me goosepimples just thinking about it. "Lastly, mine eyes desire youabove all things" or something (quoting from memory here) :'(

This letter is very sad, and very pathetic. Even if she still felt love for Henry, after all he had done to her - I can't imagine saying that to him! She should have developed some back bone and put the blame where it was - on Henry - instead of everyone else! This always makes me kind of mad at her and I can never have any respect for women or men like this.  In that sense, I respect Anne Boleyn a lot more, at least she didn't really take any crap from Henry!

Sorry for digressing. Fact is, like someone else said before, we can only speculate, and we will never know what really went on between Arthur and Catherine during the six months of their marriage... I would never exclude the possibility that she lied - she was human after all and she had a lot to gain by lying and nothing to lose, but then again, it is also possible that she didn't. This is why I don't think I will ever be able to make up my mind about this, but that's not the point I suppose - it is an interesting thing to discuss. But it's not like one day there will be some irrefutable scientific proof of this - there never will be...


helenazar

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2006, 02:38:01 PM »
Personally, I do not think she lied about it. But even if she did - which we will never know - I think it's not actually relevant.

Contrary to what some of you have written above - and what Starkey has apparently claimed - I haven't read his book yet - Mary would not have been a bastard if Katherine had consummated her marraige with Arthur because from what I've read the dispensation given by the pope to Katherine and Henry was one to cover against all possible eventualities, that is, also against the possibility that Katherine had indeed consummated her first marriage. Henry VIII of course denied the pope's right to grant such a dispensation in the first place - the central issue of the whole affair and not so much the queen's virginity - but from the Catholic point of view,  with the pope's dispensation Katherine's offspring was legitimate whether she had been a virgin or not.

I think Henry's take on it was that the Pope had no right to give dispensation if Catherine had sex with his brother. His proof was that God was punishing this marriage by not giving them any sons - papal dispensation or not, this went against god's law. This is why Henry wanted the current Pope to "anull" the previous Pope's dispensation so that Henry could make another marriage that was favored by God.


Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2006, 02:49:04 PM »
I've also read - it might be wrong - that if a couple had married 'on good faith' (ie not knowing they were doing something supposedly wrong) then their child couldn't be considered a bastard - isn't this what happened with Lady Margaret Douglas?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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bell_the_cat

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2006, 04:39:22 PM »
I think this was also the case with Charles Brandon and Mary Rose, because of his previous relationships, not because of hers.

helenazar

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2006, 05:17:44 PM »
Well, the thing is that even if Mary was going to remain legitimate - if I remember correctly this was an option given to Catherine - if she went into a convent and let Henry remarry, Catherine still had a lot to lose by admitting to not being a virgin at the time of her marraige to Henry. She may not have known that the papal dispensation was not legal up until this point, which means she went "on good faith", but if she admitted that she was Henry's brother's "true wife", while Henry insisted that the Pope had no right to give a dispensation if this were the case, then she would have to agree that Henry can now put her away because they were illegally married, and marry someone else. And if this were the case, chances were that there would be a son to replace Mary, even if she was not illegitimate. So even if Mary was considered legitimate she would not inherit the throne as Catherine wanted her to. The only way to prevent this was for Catherine to say "Our marriage was legal because I was a virgin, therefore Henry cannot marry anyone else while I am alive". So I think that the main goal for Catherine was to prevent Henry from marrying again hence taking away Mary's inheritance.

I don't know if this makes sense, but this I think is the way she saw it. It wasn't just the fact that Mary would be declared illegal, which may not necessarily have been the case even if Catherine admitted it, but the fact that Mary would be replaced by a child who is not hers but another woman's.

In addition, she didn't want to let Henry marry another woman, even though it was clear at that time that he wanted nothing more to do with her. I think she was in denial, and kept thinking that he will get sick of Anne Boleyn and come back to her, if only she persevered long enough and not admit that the mariage may have not have been legal. Little did she know that, Anne Boleyn or no Anne Boleyn, Henry didn't seem to want to stay married to her anymore and probably would have still put her away eventually and married someone else because Henry wanted a male heir at any cost.

These are pretty strong motives to lie. I am not saying that she did lie, but they are strong motives nevertheless. I am pretty sure if she lied, she convinced herself that it was done for a noble cause, i.e. for her daughter. But I think that deep down inside, she may have done it for herself too, to prevent Henry from marrying another woman because she still loved him and didn't want him with someone else.




 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 05:22:01 PM by Helen_A »

ilyala

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2006, 01:45:18 AM »
i agree with you, helen. and i kind of believe the marriage with arthur was consumated. but that does not excuse henry's actions.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2006, 10:51:06 AM »

These are pretty strong motives to lie. I am not saying that she did lie, but they are strong motives nevertheless. I am pretty sure if she lied, she convinced herself that it was done for a noble cause, i.e. for her daughter. But I think that deep down inside, she may have done it for herself too, to prevent Henry from marrying another woman because she still loved him and didn't want him with someone else.


Good point Helen. If she lied, I'm sure pride played a part - I mean, no woman likes been traded in for a younger one, right? Not to mention that she was sure she had been a model wife to Henry, right up to the 'Great Matter' when it was possible that people would rise up in her favour, she rejected the idea, possibly because she didn't want to disobey Henry in a matter that had nothing to do with what she saw as God's will. Her 'discrepancies' as a queen - the lack of a male heir - was in her eyes (and ours) not her fault, since she reminded Henry at the Blackfriars trial that she had given him 6 children, though it had 'pleased God to take them from this world'.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

zackattack

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2006, 01:29:25 PM »
Oh lordy, that letter. Written to Henry as she was dying, it is absolutely heartbreaking. It gives me goosepimples just thinking about it. "Lastly, mine eyes desire youabove all things" or something (quoting from memory here) :'(

This letter is very sad, and very pathetic. Even if she still felt love for Henry, after all he had done to her - I can't imagine saying that to him! She should have developed some back bone and put the blame where it was - on Henry - instead of everyone else! This always makes me kind of mad at her and I can never have any respect for women or men like this.  In that sense, I respect Anne Boleyn a lot more, at least she didn't really take any crap from Henry!

Sorry for digressing. Fact is, like someone else said before, we can only speculate, and we will never know what really went on between Arthur and Catherine during the six months of their marriage... I would never exclude the possibility that she lied - she was human after all and she had a lot to gain by lying and nothing to lose, but then again, it is also possible that she didn't. This is why I don't think I will ever be able to make up my mind about this, but that's not the point I suppose - it is an interesting thing to discuss. But it's not like one day there will be some irrefutable scientific proof of this - there never will be...



Would an anthropologist be able to tell if Prince Arthur had entered puberty through an examination of his remains?

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2006, 02:10:07 PM »
I don't know, but he was 15 when he died - surely he'd have to have been a really late bloomer to have not reached puberty.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Taren

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2006, 12:51:08 AM »
I don't know if this is the best place for this question, but it's something I've often wondered about, so maybe someone can help me. At the time of Elizabeth's birth Mary was considered illigetimate because Henry and Catherine were supposedly never legally married. Then, later Elizabeth was declared illigetimate on the grounds that Henry was never legally divorced from Catherine when he married Anne, right? So if this was the case, then why would Elizabeth be considered illigetimate on the grounds that her father was never legally divorced from a woman that he never considered himself legally married to in the first place? See what I'm saying?

bell_the_cat

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2006, 05:10:20 AM »
Hi Taren! Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn was anulled because of the latter's alleged treason and adultery. His first marriage was still regarded as invalid. So, both Mary and Elizabeth were "illegitimate" after 1536. Henry never legitimised them, but their regained legitimacy was implicit in the terms of his will.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 05:13:59 AM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2006, 07:06:09 AM »
That's why Elizabeth was sort of the 'left out' one of Henry's children, in the sense that all Catholics considered Mary legitimate, but they didn't consider Edward a bastard (I think) since both Catherine and Anne were dead when he was born. In a sense, Catherine's death sealed Anne's fate - if he had executed Anne while Catherine was alive, there would have been calls for him to go back to Catherine.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline jehan

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2006, 12:22:20 PM »
I don't know, but he was 15 when he died - surely he'd have to have been a really late bloomer to have not reached puberty.

I don't know about that.  I know plenty of late bloomers (including my own son, who at 15 has just entered puberty this year).  Boys mature at different rates (just like girls), and I think that in the 16th century it may have been later on average than now, just as it was for girls.
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Offline Taren

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2006, 02:09:26 PM »
Okay, thank you, Bell and Prince Lieven. I've been reading about the Tudors for years, but that was one thing I never understood.

Back to the original topic: theoretically, she could have lied -as in it wouldn't have been impossible. However, I don't think she did. Usually, when people lie it's to get out of trouble and advance their situation. By saying she never slept with Arthur she did herself more harm than good. She and her daughter were treated like garbage. Didn't Anne say that Mary would be her daughter's maid?

Also, it wasn't entirely implausible that two sixteen year olds could share a bed and not have relations. Look at Mary, Queen of Scots and Francis II. If they did have relations it wasn't right away, as Francis was incapable for awhile, right? Ditto Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. They didn't consummate their marriage for several years, and neither did Catherine the Great and Peter III. There are probably numerous other examples that I don't even know about. He could have been impotent, they both could have been shy, or neither could have known what to do. Also, Catherine was raised in a strict Catholic environment. Not only what she have been taught not to lie, but I doubt she got "the talk".

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2006, 02:23:13 PM »
Hello Everybody,

Here's something else to consider:
It seems to me that several years ago I read that when a man and a woman were "put to bed" after their wedding then they were considered legally married.
I read that Prince Richard of York (one of the 'Princes in the Tower') was married to Lady Anne Mowbray and as was the custom, put to bed even though they were 5 and 4 years old respectively.  They were considered married.

So, even if Arthur and Catherine didn't do anything, they were still considered married.

Has anybody else heard of this practice?

Larry