Author Topic: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?  (Read 80430 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #165 on: January 03, 2011, 09:49:09 AM »
Starkey disputes that Arthur was a poor specimen. He states that historians presume that he grew up a weak and feeble child but that there is clear and repeated eye-witness evidence to the contrary.
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #166 on: January 05, 2011, 05:49:56 AM »
Absolutely - there is little in the surviving evidence that suggests there was much wrong with Prince Arthur - and certainly the level of distress exhibited by his parents at his death suggests that it wasn't an end to a lifetime of suffering or a long expected event.
His health is one reason i believe that some attempt at consummation was attempted whether successfully or not - i tend to think that given Catherine's relative innocence and the interests of those around her she was at that time unsure herself or allowed herself to commit to a 'truth' that she stuck with for the rest of her life.

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2011, 03:05:33 AM »
Yes, Catherine could have lied. Despite being a pious woman, she was also aware of the politics of the court, and her fragile position as a Queen and woman. We know that she lied about being pregnant and giving birth to a stillborn baby during her marriage to Henry, which I believe was mainly due to fears and undue stress about producing a living heir, but it also demonstrates that in a difficult position, she was not always entirely truthful.

Concerning the issue of her virginity, during her marriage to Arthur, nobody raised any questions or concerns about whether the marriage was consummated. During the wedding night, Arthur's parents, Elizabeth and Henry, and his paternal grandmother, Margaret, were present to “witness” the consummation along with some other representatives from the English court and some Spanish ambassadors. Again, at that time, nobody seemed to have any mishaps about a lack of sexual intercourse, so it seems that everyone agreed Arthur and Catherine had some sort of sexual contact, even if it was only on the wedding night. What we do know with certainty was that after Arthur's death, Catherine was put into seclusion to ensure that she was not carrying his baby, a precaution sometimes performed for paternity's sake. If the marriage was unconsummated, neither Catherine nor her ladies, including her duenna, Dona Elvira Manuel decided this was an unnecessary move and a waste of time for a "virgin princess". Nobody spoke up or even hinted that no sexual intercourse had ever taken place, as the court awaited for signs of a baby bump.

In 1503, Dr. Roderigo Gonzalvo de Puebla wrote in a treaty between Henry VII and Ferdinand and Isabella that the trio would use all their influence in Rome in order for the Pope to draw up a papal dispensation because Arthur and Katherine's marriage was solemnized according to the rituals of the Church, and afterward consummated. When the dispensation was created, it was specifically written to legitimize Henry VIII and Catherine's marriage regardless of whether her first marriage was or was not consummated, but the implication was that it had been.

Apparently, Dr. de Puebla later changed his mind about Arthur and Catherine's marriage being consummated, after he had a talk with Dona Elvira. However, Catherine was not very close to Dona Elvira, who later betrayed her, so it seems rather doubtful that she was actually “in the know” about these private matters. At any rate, save for Dona Elvira, nobody seemed to consider the possibility that Catherine was still a virgin after Arthur's death, and the claim did not come up until there came talks of negotiations to betroth Henry to Catherine. It may be speculated that it was an attempt to bypass any issues with the Church, lest the couple would not receive a papal dispensation.

If Catherine lied about her virginity, I believe it was a matter of self-preservation that forced her into that position. When Catherine was sent to England to marry Arthur, it was with the belief that she would become the next Queen of England. However, after Arthur's death, Henry VII seemed to almost forget about his daughter-in-law, keeping her in near-poverty. I recall reading that she would write letters to her father-in-law, basically begging for alms because she had no money of her own to pay for her meagre upkeep. By the time she married Henry, she was in debt. Her own father was of no help, and as a widow, she was completely dependent upon this English family. In claiming to be a virgin, Catherine may have been trying to present herself in the best light possible for Henry, and not as his brother's “sloppy seconds”, even more so when Henry VIII protested in 1505 that his betrothal to Catherine was incestuous and got engaged to Catherine's niece, Eleanor. In that position, it is rather understandable why she felt the need to claim chastity, especially since decades later, she would have to defend herself and her daughter from illegitimacy.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2011, 02:42:00 PM »
Excellent post Foxglove, many thanks. Do you have any sources re the witnessing of the marriage night activities?
I know that witnesses occasionally were stationed behind a screen and not necessarily leering over the marriage bed but I have never read of witnesses in this case.
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Offline OctoberLily

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #169 on: August 10, 2011, 04:20:48 AM »
It has always been my belief that she did not lie.  I have two reasons:  1.  Catherine prematurely gave birth to a stillborn daughter not quite six months after her marriage to Henry.  This tells me the pregnancy was far enough along to determine the sex of the child, which means she became pregnant almost immediately after the marriage.  Now I realize her marriage to Arthur only lasted 4 1/2 months, but if she was that darn fertile, then I think there would have been a pregnancy.  2.  Catherine was always a devout Catholic and her piety increased with her age.  So when it was suggested that she retire to a nunnery, it would have been the perfect out.  If the Papal dispensation to marry Henry was acquired on an untruth, then I believe she would have accepted her fate, and that of her daughter, as God's will.  But she always maintained that she was Henry's "true and legitimate wife", even on her deathbed, which I believe speaks volumes.  I don't think she would have perpetuated a lie of that magnitude until the end of her life, when most do the majority of their confessing.

I've always had a soft spot for Catherine (kinda evident, huh?  :D)  She lost her first husband at such a young age; then she was in limbo for several years, in a strange country, until she finally got to marry Henry;  she lost five of the six children she carried and then her husband wants to trade her in on a new model.  Bless her heart!


Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #170 on: August 10, 2011, 08:54:58 AM »
October Lily

I take your points, and I too am inclined to believe Catherine, but it's always possible that Arthur wasn't very  fertile.

Ann

Offline OctoberLily

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #171 on: August 10, 2011, 01:16:15 PM »
Very true, Ann. 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #172 on: August 11, 2011, 03:47:25 AM »
Just to develop this theme (and I am a honeymoon baby myself, so have an interest in it!), for very quick conceptions you need two very fertile parents. Producing the first child within a year of the wedding was far from unusual in the days before reliable conception, but not necessarily the rule. Bear in mind also that Catherine was only 15 when she was married to Arthur; by the time she married Henry she was a mature adult, which may make a difference.

Ann

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #173 on: August 11, 2011, 10:49:51 AM »
I agree, Ann. In working on my own family history I have noted during this period many teenaged marriages and more often children were born while the couple were in their 20's. My guess is that there was still teenage sex, but the fertility levels were not that high while teens.

Offline OctoberLily

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Re: Could Catherine of Aragon have lied?
« Reply #174 on: August 11, 2011, 12:47:21 PM »
Well, Ann, it seems you and I share something other than an interest in this topic.....I, too, was a honeymoon souvenir!  :) 

I agree with your point about Catherine's age and the compatible fertility of both wife AND husband.  There are several factors in play there that would have an effect on the familial outcome.  Also, wasn't Arthur 15 when they married?