Author Topic: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!  (Read 23256 times)

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Annie

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2006, 06:03:33 PM »

Another issue I'd like to add: the book "Riddle of AA" attempts to paint the charectors of Grand Duchess Olga A.,Grand Duke Ernest, Gilliard, and others in a negative light.

Should one continue to respect a work that casts a negative slur over people who have been proven to be innocent beyond a reasonable doubt? Of course not.

Yes excellent point! This does the author more harm than anyone, as it's quite clear what he's capable of to write such dispicable slur!!! Very disrespectful & unfair to the memories of thoroughly good and loyal persons!!!! Is to much.

It is terrible how they were targeted for speaking the truth! I can see how they were chosen to be discredited, since they had been close to AN and their opinion carried more weight than someone who had less frequent contact, but it was cruel the way they were villianized and harrassed literally until the day they died. Poor Olga was devastated over the loss of her niece and the others, did the AA supporters ever consider her feelings?

Annie

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2006, 06:06:53 PM »
There are a lot of interesting and informative posts here.

ZackAttack is absolutely right; there always has been a huge amount of evidence AGAINST AA's claim, but the only stuff that has been flagged up and made public in books is the evidence that DOES support her claim, giving a highly skewed version of reality.

Rachel
xx

It is something everyone should consider in this that there are so many sensational pro AA writings but few if any telling the other side accurately. Unfortunately, the fiction becomes reality to those who are just passing by and they do not bother to search any further. It is sad the myth perpetuates this way.

Annie

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2006, 06:09:17 PM »
I can understand people wanting to believe that for fun, but I cannot understand the viciousness and outrageous behavior some resort to when you tell them they are wrong, she wasn't AN, DNA proves it, and that belief AA was AN is not an 'opinion' you have a 'right' to, but a proven falsehood.

I also don't understand why some people take the DNA fact personally. I well remember when some posters were downright nasty towards you, Annie, for simply pointing out the fact that DNA proves Anna Anderson was an imposter. I also don't get the people who state that they believe the DNA when it comes to proving she wasn't Anastasia, but don't accept the DNA when it comes to showing that she was most likely Franziska Schanzkowska. Anyone with any knowledge of DNA knows that the chances of her being anyone but Schanzowska are slim to none.

Sorry, but the mystery is over. She wasn't Anastasia.

Very true, Raegan, thanks for your post!

Annie

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2006, 06:10:33 PM »
I can understand people wanting to believe that for fun, but I cannot understand the viciousness and outrageous behavior some resort to when you tell them they are wrong, she wasn't AN, DNA proves it, and that belief AA was AN is not an 'opinion' you have a 'right' to, but a proven falsehood.

I well remember when some posters were downright nasty towards you, Annie, for simply pointing out the fact that DNA proves Anna Anderson was an imposter.

I know! Awful isn't it??? I guess they just don't like to be proved wrong!!  :-\

Annies lot has been a heavy one!!!

Yes, Eddie! And thanks!

Jim_Wilhelm

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2006, 04:30:19 PM »
So, Katherine The OK:

Are you "decided" now? Do tell. Thanks.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 04:35:28 PM by Jim_Wilhelm »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2006, 10:10:10 AM »

.....[in part]....
[There is a book opposing her claim : The Quest for Anastasia by John Klier and Helen Mingay. It´s  interesting even if they can´t explain everything. They wrote that :"Felix´s daughter has told reporters that her father talked about his sister Franziska with pride,saying that she got away and made a new and successful life for herself as Anna Anderson".  So it seems at least some members of the Schanzkowski family believe that AA was Franziska.[

 I have heard about the report that Felix's daughters told reporters these things.   Does anyone have a name of any of the reporters?    If not, is there an  article from a  newspaper of that time in which Felix daughter was quoted?  Perhaps the book by Kleir and Mingay mention their source.  If so,  can you tell us what it is?

Thanks.

AGRBear [/size]

Back on page 2,  I made the requested shown above.  One of the poster said he'd find it for me  but  he didn't return probably because there wasn't a source mentioned.   I had some time this morning to to dig through a box  [yes,  back into boxes,  new studio is going to be built) and pulled out my Klier and Mengay's THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA.  On page 224 they wrote:

Quote
[The remaining Schanzkowskis are quite susicious of investigrators into the Anna Anderson casse.  Felix's daughter has told reporters that her father talked about his sister Franziska with pride, saying she got away and made a new and successful life for herself as Anna Anderson.  However, she does like to be paid for her remininsciences.  Margaret Ellerick, the daughter of Gertrude who tried to make Anna admit to being a Schanzkowska generally refuses to have anything to do with investigators and is apparently afraid that the family will be prosecuted for Anna's activities

Let me note:  There is no source/sources attached to these two comments in Kleir and Mingay's book.

That's right.  No sources.

I believe Helen speaks to Mingay,  the next time could you, please, Helen, ask him where they found  these stories about  Felix's daughter [name not given] or Margaret Ellerick's.

At this time,  I can't place very much weight on what appears to be hearsay from unidentified reporter/reporters,   since I  use to work for a newspapers and have personal experience   that  many reporters are not always on the road to truth but out to sell the newspaper and gain attention to themselves.

For those of you who are not aware,  Bear does not believe AA is GD Anastasia, however, I don't believe we have to use fabricated stories, half truths or any other kind of misleading information to prove our position on this subject.

Here is another statement made by Kleir and Mingay on the same page, and,  this does not have a source noted:

Quote
[ 'My auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the four children,' said Waltraut Schanzkowski, who now lives in Hamburg.  "Se did not want to be buried in a little one-horse town in the deapts of Kashubia, she wanted to come out into the world, wanted to become an actress--something special.'[

Did Kleir, Mingay or both speak with Waltruat?  Or did they hear this story from someone else and if so who?  Or is this one of those he said, she said, they said kinda source?

The subject of Anna Anderson can and will continue to be explosive at times for both sides.  I for one do not have any kind of  agenda to prove she was or wasn't.   I'd just like to know.  In fact, before I joined the AP I was as positive as  Annie, Helen and others that AA was FS.   Then I started to weed out some of the facts, so-called facts from fiction in the various information [some of it  is viewed as facts] presented on both sides,   I found  I wasn't  all that sure that AA was FS. 

...[in part]...
The more and more I read, the more and more I can't form a solid opinion on the mystery of Anna Anderson.

 

Thus far,  I haven't seen anything new posted on this thread  because all of it  has been presented thus far on oher threads which obviously hasn't convince me, Katherine and ohers.SOOOOOOoooooo,  try and convince me and Katherine The O.K. and others with something we haven't already rehashed over and over  which can be proven to be a fact /facts.


There is no need to mention the DNA/mtDNA,  again and again, because I have no reason to think  Dr. Gilles, Ginther or anyone involved with the test  results from the sample of intestines sent to them from  Martha Jefferson Hospital falsified their results.  As far as I'm concern,  you should be able to convince me  that AA is FS without the DNA/mtDNA because all the other   facts should. also, prove  AA was FS.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: September 30, 2006, 10:38:12 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2006, 12:38:58 PM »
Coorection needed.

Bear wrote: >>Then I started to weed out some of the facts, so-called facts from fiction in the various information [some of it  is viewed as facts] presented on both sides,   I found  I wasn't  all that sure that AA was FS.  <<

Change this to: Then I started to weed out some of the facts from the (1) facts presented here, in books, etc.,  (2) so-called facts which all to often often was based on hearsay [he said, she said, they said kinda stuff, and (3) from  books, articles, etc. considered to be fiction which are  found in the various information presented on both sides,   I  soon discovered  I wasn't  all that sure that AA was FS. 

Gosh,  I do wish we had more than a half hour to make corrections,  however, having my own forum,  I realize this is necessary.  So, here I am.  And I won't even begin to correct my misspelled words and typing errors.   8)  Saying "sorry",  I hope is enough.


AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

scorpioboy

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2006, 06:28:54 PM »
this is my first time on this site and i purposefully wentto this topic.for some years ive been an aa supporter.and a romanov devoteee on general.i have read the wondrous tales of some people here and im gobsmacked.what u have to do is look atthis amazing topic with an open mind and soul.to fall into"she was told"is quite ignorant,it was firstly clearly established that as a so called fraud she would have been found out much earlier and under hypnosis on ewould have easily demasked her,put it this way .largely we have romanticised the life of anastasia.prankster and imp,we refuse to beleive that a 15 yrold innocent imperial child used to etiquette and shielded from the world,suddenly thrust intoooo traumatic circumstances,horrible and brutal,and much we will never know.any child that was cacooned in a world that was idealic suddenly faced with brutality and horrible facets of humanity would undoubtedly change.even memories and speech would chjange.it is proven fact some people suffertremendously from such trauma.the factthat aa suffered mental illness shouldnt surprise anyone.the fact she refused to speak russian.also understandable,she did have knowledge of it and talked sometimes words in private.I have no purpose to argue and create any angst..but always in my heart i have felt that if this was truly the grand duchess how sadand tragic it was for her.losing everyone she held dear and burdened with "proving"herself,the trauma of memories remembered and lost.mental illness in imperial circles was widely known.another point.i think as a whole we owe it to hermemory neverto flatly refute the possibility .what i truly beleive is people will not credit aa as its too confronting..here was a lady scarred physically and mentaly..yes she hadchanged.but to many she hadnt..and the fabulous "she was told"was debunked very early on.some oft5he real facts well neverknow as she was tested privately with questions weel nevrhear..as so ono ootherclaimantcould find out.i have read many books on aa..and may i add strongly that she could not have been "Told:retainers and courtiers did not enter the private sanctum of the mauve boudoirfor example,,and if indeed she was so cleverwhy didnt she use all she knew?simple if u were her u would be so very tired of proving yourself.and almost give up.?she was recogized by her aunt irene.almst instantly but aa was so nervous and overwhelmed she cried and couldnt go on..very human traits.she could have easily use her memories and whatevershe was supposedly told but she did not in the end she said:i am who i am"my mother and fathers daughter"i think we owe it to posterity to keep an open mind"it is easy to think that th eworld is simple and romantic but it isntimagine if she was anastasia?living with that all herlife..she was content to know that she was who she was..and frankly how are we ever to know??ahhh u hark!dna.....a german group called it inconclusive....and even by todays standards it isnt fool proof...and this brings me to a point i will bring up..throughout history documents and facts have been altered and or falsely is it not plausible..the  small intestine that was tested wasnt aaas?i mean frankly afteryears sitting in a hospital.couldnt it be switched?a large contigent would be embarressed and highly put out that it was indeed anastasia .and best put to rest.the fact that she may have survived would be utterly embarassing...we will neverknow all the truth...u see....if she was indeed this fotherwoman..who by the way family members said otherwise her fraudelent behaviourwould have fallen through....all otherclaimants faultered...how may i ask can a peasent as shes claimed to be know about small details inplaces like livadia that even retainers..neverknew..even secret imperial stuff....that wasnt meant to be known...no....royalty beleived her and royalty did not and wasnt in the habit of dealing with frauds....she never wavered..under tests galore...even lord louis mountbatten ..herardent enemy said in the end that he wasnt sure...dearaunt olga also relented and said she was:similar:all in all its sad..if it was her..she had lonely and difficult life...i myself am open to the beleif her imperial highness survived...the fairytale hadendd..many wish her to remain the same princess..and saying she died in 1918 is reckless.....how is any of us really to judge or to ever know th ereal truths ?we love the romance and pomp of the romanov era....lets notforget that these people were human..and with all that it implies.....

scorpioboy

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2006, 07:01:30 PM »
i sincerely apologise for my terrible grammarand spelling..i blame my keyboard...so sorry .

Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2006, 06:01:44 PM »
Scorpioboy, I'm sorry, but I can't even read your post.  If you could re post what you wrote using proper sentences, spelling and punctuation, that would make everyone's lives a whole lot easier.  This may be an internet forum, but you're not writing an email! Remember, a lot of posters on here don't have English as their first language and have trouble when everything is written in perfect English.  Imagine a non native speaker trying to work out what you've written below! I don't mean any offence, it's just a request to make sure your posts are legible.  Otherwise, you're not going to get any responses.  I couldn't make it past the first line of your post, which is a shame, as I'm sure you have some interesting points in there somewhere.

Rachel
xx


Annie

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2006, 06:11:53 PM »
It appears that scorpioboy's first 2 posts and mine and Eddie's responses have been deleted, so maybe this means the 'newbie' is a returning banned person and the mods found out and are trying to stop trouble?

Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2006, 06:20:44 PM »
Ugh not again....

I wouldn't be surprised!

Rachel
xx

Tania

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2006, 07:53:07 PM »
Having worked 30 years with many those with English as a new language, or those self learned, I decided to offer understanding to scorpioboy's post so it may lend better understanding to what tries to convey. I hope it allows both sides on this thread, to come to a better understanding of helping to receive and in that of offering exchanges of communication, to be without further feelings of anyone feeling distanced from the forum. Thanks in advance. Here is what I managed to understand from Scorpioboy's prior posting.

Quote with corrections: This is my first time on this site.  I purposely went to this topic. For some years, I have been an AA supporter and a Romanov devotee in general.  I have read the wondrous tales of some people here and I am gob smacked. What you have to do, is look at this amazing topic with an open mind and soul. To fall into "she was told", is quite ignorant.  It was first clearly established, that as a so-called fraud, she would have been found out much earlier and under hypnosis on would have easily damasked her. To put it this way, largely, we have romanticized the life of Anastasia a prankster and imp.  We refuse to believe that a 15 yr old innocent imperial child, used to etiquette and shielded from the world, suddenly thrust into traumatic circumstances, horrible and brutal, and much more, we will never know. Any child that was cocooned into a world that was idyllic, who was suddenly faced with brutality and horrible facets of humanity, would undoubtedly change. Even memories and speech would change. It is a proven fact that some people suffer tremendously from such trauma.  The fact that AA suffered mental illness should not surprise anyone. The fact she refused to speak Russian. Also could understand, and she did have knowledge of Russian and talked sometimes words in private, in Russian. I have no purpose to argue and create any anger.. but always in my heart, I have felt that if this was truly the Grand Duchess, how sad and tragic it was for her. Losing everyone she held dear and burdened with "proving" herself, the trauma of memories remembered and lost. Mental illness in Imperial Circles was widely known.  Another point, I think as a whole, we owe it to her memory, never to flatly refute the possibility. What I truly believe is that people will not credit AA, as it is too confronting. Here was a lady scarred physically and mentally. yes she had changed. But to many she hadn't..and the fact "she was told" was debunked very early on. Some of the real facts we will never know, as she was tested privately with questions we will never hear.. So on other claimant could find out. I have read many books on AA..May I add strongly, that she could not have been "Told. Retainers and Courtiers did not enter the private sanctum of the mauve boudoir for example, and if indeed, she was so clever why didn’t she use all she knew? Simple if you were she, you would be so very tired of proving yourself and almost give up. She was recognized by her Aunt Irene, almost instantly, but AA was so nervous and overwhelmed, that she cried and couldn’t go on.. These are very human traits. She could have easily used her memories and whatever she was supposedly told, but she did not. In the end, she said: “I am who i am, my mother and fathers daughter".  I think we owe it to posterity to keep an open mind "it is easy to think that the world, it is simple and romantic but it isn’t. Just imagine if she was Anastasia? Living with that all her life.. She was content to know that she was who she was..and frankly how are we ever to know?? ahhh u hark! [Meaning you listen or pay attention] DNA.....a German group called it inconclusive....and even by today’s standards, it isn’t fool proof...and this brings me to a point i will bring up. Throughout history documents and facts have been altered and or falsely. Is it not plausible..that the  small intestine that was tested wasn’t AA’s ? I mean frankly after years sitting in a hospital, couldn’t it be switched?  A large contingent would be embarrassed and highly put out that it was indeed Anastasia and best put to rest. The fact that she may have survived would be utterly embarrassing...We will never know all the truth...You see,...if she was indeed this other woman, who by the way, family members said otherwise, her fraudulent behavior would have fallen through...All other claimant's faultered..How may I ask, can a peasant as she claimed to be, know about small details in places like Livadia that even retainers.. never knew..not, even secret Imperial stuff....That wasn’t meant to be known... No....royalty believed her and royalty did not, and wasn’t in the habit of dealing with frauds....She never wavered..even, not even under tests galore...even Lord Louis Mountbatten,. her ardent enemy, said in the end that he wasn’t sure...Dear Aunt Olga also relented and said she was: similar: All in all, its sad. if it was she..She had a lonely and difficult life...I myself, am open to the belief, that her Imperial Highness survived...The fairytale has ended.. Many wish her to remain the same Princess. However, saying she died in 1918 is reckless...How are any of us really to judge or to ever know the truths? We love the romance and pomp of the Romanov era...Lets not forget that these people were human. and with all that it implies..... End Quote

scorpioboy

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2006, 08:09:24 PM »
i am utterly ashamed of my terrible writing.....forgive me....i shall endeavour t o be better

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Try and convince me- I'm undecided!
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2006, 08:36:10 PM »
Oy. Please cite the "german group" that called the DNA results inconclusive. The "real world" considers them conclusive beyond any doubt.