Author Topic: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture  (Read 125377 times)

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Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #300 on: September 14, 2006, 10:02:25 PM »


At the time of the law change, the king expressed his disappointment.  he was not against allowing women, but he did not approve of changing the succession so that carl Philip would lose his first place.  He also spoke about it when Victoria reached her majority - he has great faith in his daughter, however
Has King Carl Gustaf ever publicly stated how he feels about equal primogeniture or if he thinks his son should be heir apparent? Do we know if Prince Carl Philip has ever stated one way or the other how he feels? Have any royals ever spoken publicly about how they view this issue?
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Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #301 on: September 14, 2006, 10:18:08 PM »
I hate to break the news to you, but there are more Lutherans than Orthodox.  Roman Catholicism is the largest Christian Church in the world, followed by the Lutherans ... I am not lapsed at anything, nor do I need to convert.  My family has been Lutheran since the reformation.  Moreover, I love belonging to a church that is socially conscious and follows Christ's teachings to the utmost - helping others.  The Orthodox church has nothing to compare with Lutheran Social Services (the largest non profit in the USA), and the myriad of related organizations from Immigration and adoption to the Lutheran World relief - one of the most respected international charities.  You talk about heresy and lapsed Christians and all that ... we try to live as Christ taught us --helping others - locally, nationally, internationally ..  LSS was a faith-based organization long before the Shrub alleged coined the phrase. 

John 14: 27   Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

Jesus was a man of peace ... He died so that you may live. 

But don't go around trying to tell people that they are "lapsed Christians" when, in fact, they may be living a far more Christian life than you are - I wish everyone was Lutheran (and not Missouri-Synod) -- especially in government -- we would have less weapons, less wars and more hospitals ... but that's not going to happen ...  :)

I get in trouble when I OD on my faith -- but I don't tell people that they have to convert to find the "Truth." 

[Marlene, there is a single Truth, a single Church as God is one and He is never changing. Therefore, there are such things as heresies, as departures from Truth. In an absolute sense, heretics are lapsed Christians, as heresies are distorted Truth. Now, being a heretic doesn't automatically condemn one to Hell, unlike what Protestants would have us believe, "thanks" to the heresy of predestination. Christ is impartial and judges each of us according to their own conscience (Romans 2:10-15) unless born and raised Orthodox: if one never got the chance to learn the unaltered Truth (i.e. Orthodox Christianity), he or she is not at fault and so will be judged according to his/her conscience. In the Orthodox understanding, even a canibal amazonian or an atheist can go to Heaven, if he or she lives up to the conscience formed in him/her in his/her youth. This is the reason why the Orthodox Church, unlike the Protestants who want to save all non-Christians from Hell, sees proselytism as un-necessary.

God bless!
Borbon Fan
[/quote]

I guess I should have been a bit clearer about what I meant by "lapsed Christians." In an absolute sense, I repeat, all non-Orthodox are lapsed/heretics from the viewpoint of the Orthodox Church - the only true Church - to Which they do not belong, for to say otherwise is to admit their heresies as Truth. In a relative sense, though, each Christian, lapsed or not, Orthodox or not, within his/her denomination, can be devout or lapsed, depending on how well he/she lives up to the respective denomination's understanding of Christ. You may very well be a devout Christian in this relative sense, living your life up to the Lutheran teachings to the utmost, yet in an absolute sense still remain a lapsed one/heretic, as long as you do not convert to Orthodoxy. But again, I cannot emphasize this enough, this does not bar the non-Orthodox or even non-Christians from salvation, as Romans 2:10-15 teaches us.

As to my understanding of the Bible, I am not at all confused, on the contrary. However, I do not wish to continue this clearly off-topic discussion here. Perhaps on another thread, although I doubt such a theological debate is within the confines of the royalty theme of the forum.

God bless!
Borbon Fan
[/quote]
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Offline Taren

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #302 on: September 14, 2006, 10:37:57 PM »
At the time of the law change, the king expressed his disappointment.  he was not against allowing women, but he did not approve of changing the succession so that carl Philip would lose his first place.  He also spoke about it when Victoria reached her majority - he has great faith in his daughter, however
Has King Carl Gustaf ever publicly stated how he feels about equal primogeniture or if he thinks his son should be heir apparent? Do we know if Prince Carl Philip has ever stated one way or the other how he feels? Have any royals ever spoken publicly about how they view this issue?

Thank you for answering my question. May I ask what your feelings, as someone whose specialty is royalty, are in regard to the various forms of succession? The same goes for everyone else. I'm interested in all of the different opinions.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:40:21 PM by Taren »

BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #303 on: September 14, 2006, 11:01:25 PM »
I hate to break the news to you, but there are more Lutherans than Orthodox.  Roman Catholicism is the largest Christian Church in the world, followed by the Lutherans ...
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (Luke 12:32)

I am not lapsed at anything, nor do I need to convert.
It is not my view, but that of my Church, The Church, that non-Orthodox Christians are lapsed, i.e. heretics. There is absolutely nothing personal here. Also, I never said that you or any non-Orthodox need to convert. Again, the non-Orthodox and the non-Christians can be saved, too, without converting to Christianism, if they live up to their consciences, provided they were never given the chance to be educated into Orthodoxy.

But don't go around trying to tell people that they are "lapsed Christians" when, in fact, they may be living a far more Christian life than you are.
I have not told anybody that they personally are lapsed, but that there is such a thing as absolute Truth about God and His Christ and that those who believe a distorted version thereof are lapsed, i.e. heretics. Again, one can be lapsed (i.e. heretic) in an absolute sense with regards to the absolute Truth of Christ's message and yet at the same time good and devout in a relative sense, with regards to one's denomination's principles. You yourself admitted to the existence of heresy ("lapsedhood" in my vocabulary), when you compared Lutheranism with other Protestant denominations with regards to predestination.

Also, I never compared anybody's life to mine as reason for calling one "lapsed" -- the reason was and is purely theological, not personal.

God bless!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 11:07:25 PM by BorbonFan »

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #304 on: September 15, 2006, 05:42:56 AM »
BourbonFan - you are talking all the nonsense of a 'Fan'.   I enjoy very close relationships with the Russian Orthodox Church - including a personal friendship with His Holiness Vladimir, Metropolitan of St Petersburg and Lagoda.   He knows, much though I respect and love Orthodoxy, I was born into a family with different Christian traditions.   He is hoping, and praying, to be able to visit the Island of Iona off the West Coast of Scotland and make a pilgrimage to the site where St Columba first introduced Christianity to my country.   If there is no bigotry from someone of the stature of Vladika Vladimir - what right do you think you have to subject our members to your personal bigotry?   

My late father was a clergyman and to call him, or anyone else belonging to a different Christian denomination, or other faith, an heretic, is NOT acceptable. 

Don't dare come to this Forum and even imply our members are 'heretics'.    Don't be a coward and try to hide your bigotry under a cloak of 'Orthodoxy' while making such accusations.   In terms of Orthodoxy hierarchy, your opinion counts for absolutely nothing.   Your interpretation of, and citing of scripture is very selective.

I have travelled the road thus far with you and  tolerated your - some may say 'warped' - attitudes.   I have given you the benefit of the doubt, interpreting much of what you write as 'tongue in cheek'.   Now you are going too far.

To return to topic, this, extremely informative thread, is too valuable to 'lock' in an endeavour to control BourbonFan's more outrageous outbursts.   If his insults and slanders do not cease forthwith, we will  be left with no alternative but to invite him to let vent his spleen on another Forum more suited to his extremely idiosynctratic ideology.   

So, BourbonFan - the choice is yours.   Apologise to those to whom you have caused offence... or move elsewhere.

tsaria
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 07:16:53 AM by tsaria »

Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #305 on: September 15, 2006, 09:07:42 AM »
thank you ... I have no problems with the eldest child succeeding ...

At the time of the law change, the king expressed his disappointment.  he was not against allowing women, but he did not approve of changing the succession so that carl Philip would lose his first place.  He also spoke about it when Victoria reached her majority - he has great faith in his daughter, however
Has King Carl Gustaf ever publicly stated how he feels about equal primogeniture or if he thinks his son should be heir apparent? Do we know if Prince Carl Philip has ever stated one way or the other how he feels? Have any royals ever spoken publicly about how they view this issue?

Thank you for answering my question. May I ask what your feelings, as someone whose specialty is royalty, are in regard to the various forms of succession? The same goes for everyone else. I'm interested in all of the different opinions.
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #306 on: September 15, 2006, 09:12:31 AM »
Borbon fan ..

This might surprise you - The ELCA and the Orthodox church have been in dialog for some years --


http://www.elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/orthodox/trinity.htm

Obviously, there is no question of hereticism.



lGod bless!
[/quote]
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #307 on: September 15, 2006, 04:37:32 PM »
Here is the most recent official position on heresy and ecumenism dated September 7, 2006, of my Church -- the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, ROCOR -- as well as of the Russian Orthodox Church -- the largest Orthodox Church in the world, recently reunited with ROCOR -- position with which, as Her obedient son, I must comply:

"Dear in the Lord fathers, brothers and sisters! We do not intend to depart from our positions of principle, in particular with regard to the ecumenical movement. We intend to continue to firmly speak out in condemnation of the so-called "branch theory" and of joint prayer with heretics, which is emphasized in our anathema of ecumenism adopted by the Council of Bishops of 1983. This is reflected in the documents of the church Commissions confirmed by both Holy Synods and published in the official publications of the two parts of the Russian Orthodox Church. From this we see that in the Moscow Patriarchate, our attitude towards the heresy of ecumenism has long ago been absorbed. That is why we are not compromising the inherited principles which have always guided us. Still, we were always open to dialog with everyone, but on the condition that this be done without any hindrance to Orthodox teaching." (Address of the Synod of Byshops to the God-loving Flock of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, NEW YORK: September 7, 2006)

As you can all see now, it is not my, but my Church's official position on heresy which apparently has offended certain individuals. If they still feel offended, I would suggest to them to write for apologies to the Synod of the Bishops of ROCOR at:

Metropolitan LAURUS, Eastern America and New York Diocese
FIRST HIERARCH of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
75 East 93rd Street
New York, NY 10128, U.S.A.
Tel: (212) 534-1601; fax: (212) 534-1798
Link: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engrocor/enbishops.html

With this I invite all those offended by my Church's views to bury their hatchet they pulled against me since I never had anything personal with them to begin with, to lay to rest this thorny topic, and to remain assured that my love and respect for them, whether they are Orthodox or not, Christian or not, are equal, since we are all equal before God's impartial judgment (Romans 2:10-15).

God bless!
Borbon Fan
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 05:01:42 PM by BorbonFan »

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #308 on: September 15, 2006, 05:23:31 PM »
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Thank goodness it is God who holds ultimate sanction.

tsaria

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #309 on: September 15, 2006, 07:50:00 PM »
Please let's keep it on topic and not have another diversion into theology. Anyone wishing to take up that discussion with another poster, please keep it to PMs. Many thanks.

Am I talking past myself? No more theology discussions on the open Forum, please. The discussion may be of interest to the individuals but confine it to PMs and not distract from the discussion at hand. There's no need to keep responding to posts publicly.
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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #310 on: September 15, 2006, 08:50:06 PM »
To reinforce GDElla's comment, Bob has asked me to write: What would Jesus say here?

I strongly doubt it would be anything derogatory, inflammatory or negative of others.

Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #311 on: September 15, 2006, 09:59:00 PM »

Huge smile -  we agree -- although it is already done deal ... the saving bit, that is  :)

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Thank goodness it is God who holds ultimate sanction.

tsaria
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& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #312 on: September 15, 2006, 10:01:46 PM »
You cannot write this sort of stuff when I have a drink in my hand

 ::)


John 14: 27   Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.


To reinforce GDElla's comment, Bob has asked me to write: What would Jesus say here?

I strongly doubt it would be anything derogatory, inflammatory or negative of others.

Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #313 on: September 16, 2006, 07:17:48 AM »
OK its a new day, its time to move on.

I would like to address the disastrous results of Salic Law vis a vis the destruction of the Imperial House of Romanov.

Obviously this is wandering into the realms of the hypothetical, but had it not been for Tsar Paul I's negative reaction towards his mother, his successor, Tsar Nicholas II and his wife would not have been under endless scrutiny and pressure in their endeavour to produce a male child.   

Of course there were many flaw with this reign, but the overwhelming necessity to produce a male heir forced Russia's last Emperor to look 'in' to his own family rather than 'out' to his wider family.   And, when they finally succeeded in producing an heir, we all know the calamatous consequences.   It was not just the Empress who 'failed' in the one real job required of her.  'Batushka' Tsar failed.   Without Salic Law, Empress Alexandra, an infinitely more intellingent human being, feeling secure in her role, would have been able to assert herself for the good.   Her inability to fulfil the one role required of her, pushed Alexandra Feodorovna to the brink, and many would say, over that brink.   Cruel or what?   It is little wonder that, when she did produce a son whose life was perpetually compromised, Alexandra fell foul of the mystical works of a charlatan and the course of Russian history ran headlong into disaster.

Alexander Kerensky, in exile, wrote - 'Had there been no Rasputin, there would have been no Lenin'.   I have also thought that should have gone one stage further - had there been no haemophilia, there would have been no Rasputin and therefore no Lenin.   Considering this in the framework of this thread, I would now go one stage further - Had there been no Salic Law, there would not have been an issue.

I have to contend that Salic Law cost the mighty land of Russia dear, but it wasn't just Russia, the entire world suffered and changed as a result.

tsaria
 

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #314 on: September 16, 2006, 10:10:24 AM »
I agree--I even mentioned the Pauline Law earlier on this thread as being disastrous. Olga was an intelligent young woman, with a strong sense of duty, very reilgious, and very Russian in her outlook. I think she would've made a very good ruler if she'd been allowed. Whether or not forces would've overtaken the ruling house anyway is another question, but allowing Olga to have succeeded her father would've at least brought peace of mind to the family.
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