Author Topic: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture  (Read 125384 times)

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BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #315 on: September 16, 2006, 10:20:41 AM »
I have to contend that Salic Law cost the mighty land of Russia dear, but it wasn't just Russia, the entire world suffered and changed as a result.

tsaria
 

Had there been no Salic Law, there would still have been plenty pretexts left to the anarchist anti-Christian agitators to defame the Monarchy, to stir up revolt, and to topple it. After all, the general situation of Russia during WW I was rather bad - famines, lack of ammuniton, defeats, lots of war casualties - all good enough pretexts for said agitators to stir up revolt. If you want to defend your thesis, you should try to quantify with historical evidence which of these pretexts mattered the most in stirring up the burgeois and then the Bolchevik revolutions and show that shame cast by Rasputin over the Imperial Family held the biggest share.

I for one do not believe that the alleged adultery of the Tsarina with Rasputin mattered more than the famines and the war casualties.


BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #316 on: September 16, 2006, 11:09:29 AM »
To reinforce GDElla's comment, Bob has asked me to write: What would Jesus say here?

I strongly doubt it would be anything derogatory, inflammatory or negative of others.


Your doubts are unfounded. Matthew 6:5-6 and chapter 23 are full of Jesus' overflowing fury against the hypocrites, the pharisees, and the intellectuals, while Luke 17:1 shows His fury at those who lead His flock into heresy. Not only He spoke up in inflammatory or negative terms of all these who prevent others from going to Heaven, but He didn't even shy away from using a whip to chase the traders and money changers out from His Father's Temple (John 2:14,15).

God bless!
Borbon Fan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #317 on: September 16, 2006, 11:16:12 AM »
True, he was encouraging everyone to return to the laws of Moses in Leviticus. The very ones I referenced earlier...

BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #318 on: September 16, 2006, 11:43:24 AM »
True, he was encouraging everyone to return to the laws of Moses in Leviticus. The very ones I referenced earlier...


True. Jesus was castigating those who had been misinterpreting Moses' laws for their own material benefit, urging the return to the laws and the prophets in their original form, unaltered by the pharisees. Indeed, Jesus had not come to abolish Moses' laws or the prophets, but rather to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17). Once fulfilled through His resurrection, a new era began, one in which sacrifice either of humans tresspasings God's laws or of animals at the Temple in Jerusalem, would no longer be needed, for henceforth Christ would provide Himself the ever renewable sacrificial Lamb during the Mystery of the Eucharist. Thus, starting with His Resurrection, the parts of Moses' laws regarding human or animal sacrifices were no longer necessary, while the animal one remained so but only up until the Resurrection, as we see from Christ's defense of the purity of the sacrificial activity at the Temple.

God bless!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 12:07:35 PM by BorbonFan »

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #319 on: September 16, 2006, 12:41:21 PM »
The Grand Duchess Olga was nineteen years when WWI broke out, an intelligent, thoughtful young woman and widely admired.   

During the prime ministership of Stolypin, the rate of economic growth in Russia outstripped every other country in the world, to the extent that by 1910 Russia was the fastest growing country in the world.   Had there been security within the ruling house, the autocracy would not have been undermined by members of its own family.   Kaiser Wilhelm would have thought twice about drawing a strong country into war.   He knew Russia was being destabilised from within, thus She was weakened.   

I am shocked at BourbonFan's even mentioning that Alexandra Feodorovna's relationship with Rasputin was improper.   

tsaria 

BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #320 on: September 16, 2006, 01:39:46 PM »
I am shocked at BourbonFan's even mentioning that Alexandra Feodorovna's relationship with Rasputin was improper.   

tsaria 

Please, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said it was improper. I said it was alleged to be improper - by the revolutionaries.

You, however, didn't prove that Rasputin contributed to the Russian revolutions more than the general situation of the nation. It would help if you quoted some respectable historical sources.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 01:43:55 PM by BorbonFan »

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #321 on: September 16, 2006, 04:38:03 PM »
BourbonFan

I understood the implication of the word 'alleged'.   I was expressing surprise that you would think of, never mind raise, such a subject.

If you wish to discuss Rasputin and his role in the destruction of the Romanov Dynasty, you will find a variety of threads dealing with this subject elsewhere in this Forum.

What might be worthwhile would be a direct response to the proposition that Emperor Paul I's introduction of Salic Law, had a marked influence on the collapse of the Romanov Dynasty... a form of government which was subsequently replaced by a regime of men, one of whose stated aims was the utter emasculation of the Russian Orthodox Church.

tsaria


Offline Taren

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #322 on: September 16, 2006, 04:43:22 PM »
I've been skimming through Felix Yussupov's memoirs and came across an interesting passage: "All members of the dynasty who married someone not of royal blood were obliged to sign a document renouncing their rights to the throne. Although Irina was very distant in the line of succession, she had to comply with this regulation before marrying me; but it did not seem to worry her very much."

If women were not allowed to inherit anyway, what was the point of them being in the succession or having to renounce the rights to something that would ultimately never be theirs?

David_Pritchard

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #323 on: September 16, 2006, 05:06:53 PM »
I've been skimming through Felix Yussupov's memoirs and came across an interesting passage: "All members of the dynasty who married someone not of royal blood were obliged to sign a document renouncing their rights to the throne. Although Irina was very distant in the line of succession, she had to comply with this regulation before marrying me; but it did not seem to worry her very much."

If women were not allowed to inherit anyway, what was the point of them being in the succession or having to renounce the rights to something that would ultimately never be theirs?

Congratulations Taren!

I have been waiting for someone to notice the obvious. Below is Article 39 of the Fundamental Law of the Russian Empire, notice that it refers to IMPERATOR or IMPERATRITSA:

39. ИМПЕРАТОР или ИМПЕРАТРИЦА, Престол наследующие, при вступлении на оный и миропомазании, обязуются свято наблюдать вышепостановленные законы о наследии Престола. 1797 Апр. 5 (17910); 1906 Апр. 23, собр. узак., 603, ст. 24.

BorbonFan

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #324 on: September 16, 2006, 05:31:40 PM »
BourbonFan

I understood the implication of the word 'alleged'.   I was expressing surprise that you would think of, never mind raise, such a subject.
I thought of it since you mentioned the "disaster" and the Bolshevik revolution brought about by the Rasputin affair: "It is little wonder that, when she did produce a son whose life was perpetually compromised, Alexandra fell foul of the mystical works of a charlatan and the course of Russian history ran headlong into disaster.

Alexander Kerensky, in exile, wrote - 'Had there been no Rasputin, there would have been no Lenin'."   

It is well known that the anarchist and communist agitators speculated the alleged infidelity of the Tsarina with Rasputin to stir up a successful revolt. Hence, I went one step further than your suggestions did by providing the missing link between Rasputin and the disaster, between him and Lenin.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 05:35:26 PM by BorbonFan »

Offline Marlene

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #325 on: September 16, 2006, 07:22:29 PM »


Women had the right of inheritance- after all the males.   This is made quite clear in the Fundamental laws.


I've been skimming through Felix Yussupov's memoirs and came across an interesting passage: "All members of the dynasty who married someone not of royal blood were obliged to sign a document renouncing their rights to the throne. Although Irina was very distant in the line of succession, she had to comply with this regulation before marrying me; but it did not seem to worry her very much."

If women were not allowed to inherit anyway, what was the point of them being in the succession or having to renounce the rights to something that would ultimately never be theirs?
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Offline Taren

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #326 on: September 17, 2006, 01:03:41 AM »
I've been skimming through Felix Yussupov's memoirs and came across an interesting passage: "All members of the dynasty who married someone not of royal blood were obliged to sign a document renouncing their rights to the throne. Although Irina was very distant in the line of succession, she had to comply with this regulation before marrying me; but it did not seem to worry her very much."

If women were not allowed to inherit anyway, what was the point of them being in the succession or having to renounce the rights to something that would ultimately never be theirs?

Congratulations Taren!

I have been waiting for someone to notice the obvious. Below is Article 39 of the Fundamental Law of the Russian Empire, notice that it refers to IMPERATOR or IMPERATRITSA:

39. ИМПЕРАТОР или ИМПЕРАТРИЦА, Престол наследующие, при вступлении на оный и миропомазании, обязуются свято наблюдать вышепостановленные законы о наследии Престола. 1797 Апр. 5 (17910); 1906 Апр. 23, собр. узак., 603, ст. 24.

I don't read Russian, but I think I get the gist. Thanks for posting that. I've never read the Fundamental Laws, so I was completely ignorant of the fact that women could inherit after all the men. Is there a similar provision like this in Japan or are they just hoping to win the Y chromosome jackpot?

David_Pritchard

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #327 on: September 17, 2006, 02:41:45 AM »
Dear Taren,

There is no such provision under Japanese Imperial House Law. Until the laws were revised by General Douglas MacArthur during the American occupation, this current situation would never have arisen. The revised occupational law reduced the cadet lines of the Imperial House to commoner status. Prior to this the cadet lines always served as a genetic reserve for a sonless, nephewless emperor to adopt one of his male line cousins as his son and heir. I think it would be best to return the cadet lines to imperial status and allow married princesses to retain their titles and styles.

David

basilforever

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #328 on: September 17, 2006, 04:43:43 AM »
Dear Taren,

There is no such provision under Japanese Imperial House Law. Until the laws were revised by General Douglas MacArthur during the American occupation, this current situation would never have arisen. The revised occupational law reduced the cadet lines of the Imperial House to commoner status. Prior to this the cadet lines always served as a genetic reserve for a sonless, nephewless emperor to adopt one of his male line cousins as his son and heir. I think it would be best to return the cadet lines to imperial status and allow married princesses to retain their titles and styles.

David

I think it would be best to return the cadet lines to imperial status in Japan and allow married princesses of Japan to retain their titles and styles, as they do in many other monarchies and aristocratic families. However, with the arrival of the new baby Prince ''the current situation'' or problem is now over for the time being. :)

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Salic Law, Primogeniture and Equal Primogeniture
« Reply #329 on: September 17, 2006, 06:43:01 AM »
Dear Taren,

There is no such provision under Japanese Imperial House Law. Until the laws were revised by General Douglas MacArthur during the American occupation, this current situation would never have arisen. The revised occupational law reduced the cadet lines of the Imperial House to commoner status. Prior to this the cadet lines always served as a genetic reserve for a sonless, nephewless emperor to adopt one of his male line cousins as his son and heir. I think it would be best to return the cadet lines to imperial status and allow married princesses to retain their titles and styles.

David

Dis he E & E of Japan have a second chiled?  There was never any mu problem in IMO.  The Japanesse would have just changed the sucession laws to allow for the succession of a woman/empress,  as Spain probably will and Norway did!  THe Best Monarch's are alawys wommen, EI & II, Victoria, Katherine the Great. Marie Theresa!!!   ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay

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I think it would be best to return the cadet lines to imperial status in Japan and allow married princesses of Japan to retain their titles and styles, as they do in many other monarchies and aristocratic families. However, with the arrival of the new baby Prince ''the current situation'' or problem is now over for the time being. :)
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