Re: Alexander Palace Design

[brnbg aka: liljones1968]

I have no fixture plans of Alexandra's bathroom, but I do of all of Meltzer's redesigned area of of the Imperial wing with his signatures.

"...but i do of all of Meltzer's redesigned area of the Imperial wing..."

why have you never posted them?    

[pers]

Yes, please be so kind and post some of them, although I suspect you are keeping them for your book

[Reco]

AP dimensions :

1 arshin = 0.3333333 sazhen = 0.7112m = 2' 4" = 28 inch

2 arshin = 0.6666667sazhen =  0.7112m = 4' 8" = 56 inch

3 arshin = 1 sazhen = 2.1336m = 7 feet = 84 inch

4 arshin = 1.3333333 sazhen = 2.8448m = 9' 4" = 112 inch

10 arshin = 3.3333333 sazhen = 7.112m = 9' 4" = 112 inch

14 arshin = 4.6666667 sazhen =9.9568m = 9' 4" = 112 inch

32 arshin = 10.6666667 sazhen = 22.7584m = 9' 4" = 112 inch
============================
pers wrote in 2004 ( Re:  Alexander Palace Design )

The width of the corridor I think is 4 arshin

The two doors opposite one another in the corridor giving access to Alexandra's dressingroom/bathroom and on the opposite side of the corridor to the formal reception room of Nicholas I guess are 2 arshin wide each

Yes, that would be 32 ARSHIN, and just over 10 sazhen (divided by 3).  I think the corridor walls are at least 1 arshin each, and the outside either 2arshin each or one-and-a-half arshin each.  I worked out the dimensions of the Private Wing at 28.7m  x 71.64m  walls included, based on the copy of the plan with a scale of measurement on it.

I think the rooms measure 10 arshin by 14 arshin, and NOT 9X14 arshin as mentioned above.  Those of you that know a lot about the Russians shall be familiar with arshin and sazhen as measurements.  I quote from the Oxford Russian Dictionary:"arshin (Russian  measure, equivalent to 28 inches or 71 cm)" and "sazhen (Russian measure of length, equivalent to 2.13 metres)".

28.7m = 40.3543307 arshin = 13.4514436 sazhen = 94.160105'

71.64m = 100.7311586 arshin = 33.5770529 sazhen = 235.0393701'
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FA wrote in 2004 ( Re:  Alexander Palace Design )

According to the plan drawn up for the World Monuments Fund survey of the Alexander Palace the dimensions are:

the width of the Imperial Residence aisle is 80' = 24.384m = 34.2857 arshin = 11.42857 sazhen  (the 'internal' width is indeed 74' = 22.5552m = 31.7142857 arshin = 10.5714286 sazhen)
the External or Park facade length of the aisle is 205' = 62.484m = 87.8571429 arshin = 29.2857143 sazhen
the Internal or Courtyard length of the aisle is 72' = 21.9456m = 30.8571429 arsnin = 10.2857143 sazhen
the inside/courtyard width between aisles is 245' = 74.676m = 105 arshin = 35 sazhen
thus the total length across the Palace is 405' (80'x2+245') = 123.144m = 173.1496063 arshin = 57.7165354 sazhen
============================
On the plan that Wladimir dispatched, the scale is in meter.
The width of the Imperial Residence aisle is 88.58' = 26.999184 m = 37.9628571 arshin = 12.6542857 sazhen
The External or Park facade length of the aisle is 209.5' = 63.8556m = 89.7857143 arshin = 29.9285714 sazhen

pers = dimensions of the Private Wing at 28.7m  x 71.64m  walls included

FA = dimensions of the Private Wing at 24.384m ( 80')  x 62.484m (205')  walls included

Reco = dimensions of the Private Wing at 27m ( 88,5')  x 63,85m (209,5')  walls included

Since we have all three almost same dimensions for the wings, the section between the wings must be proportional with the remainder of the palace.

On the plan that Wladimir dispatched, it is obvious that the court between the two wings is broader than 245 feet or 74.676m

I moved the wings on my plan. It would be necessary to decrease dimensions of the central part considerably to place it in this space of 245'

The inside/courtyard width between aisles must be approximately 319.8818898' = 97,5m = 137.0922385 arshin = 45.6974128 sazhen  
It is more probable.

[pers]

Cannot we PLEASE get one of our members who live in St. Petersburg, go out to Tsarskoe Selo and MEASURE it for us, since this is driving me (I presume there are others) CRAZY!!!

[hikaru]

We need a special permission to measure anything

[Forum Admin]

Let me remind you that an American Engineer measured the AP for the World Monuments Fund study onsite. I am certain that it is extremely accurate as it was done with modern laser measuring tools.

[Reco]

I feel really bad about it . I do not want to be disrespectful towards anyone.

If the windows and spaces between the windows have same dimensions as the wings, the central part of the building is broader than dimensions of the World Monuments Fund.

It is a simple question of mathematics.

It is not necessary to be an engineer to see on the plan that the two wings respect with a few feet close (8,5 f ) the dimensions of the World Monuments Fund 80f = 88,5f ( 8,5/80 f = 10,6 %).

The difference between 245 f and 311 f is not proportional : 245f = 311f (66/311 = 21 %). It is not normal. There must be an error.

To respect the mathematical proportion, space between the two wings must at least have 278f  = 245 + 33 or 311 - 33 (33/311 = 10,6 %).

I  am sorry. I know that it is very hard to imagine that an American engineer can make an error. The whole world knows all that American is perfect. Can somebody say that even if it is a very tiny possibility, there can be an error?

[BobG]

Does anyone else find it VERY ODD that according to the World Monument Fund study a Russian palace built in 1792 designed by Giacamo Quarenghi, built under the supervision of Russian achitect Nilov working with Minchacci, Rusco, and others would build a building with EXACT English measurements of:
the width of the Imperial Residence aisle is 80'
the External or Park facade length of the aisle is 205'
the Internal or Courtyard length of the aisle is 72'
thus the total length across the Palace is 405'

It seems to me that it would be far more plausible for the palace to measure in EXACT Russian units of arshins or sazhens, and I would like to see details of the World Monument Fund Study.  I think these exact English measurement do not make sense and may be inaccurate.  

Forum Administrator, do you have the details of the study? Who the firm was?
What their exact methodology was?
I don't think we can just assume their measurements are correct in light of Vladimir's scaled drawings and the tremendous work Reco has done in recreating them and in pointing out the possible flaws of the previously unquestioned work of an unnamed firm.
It just occrred to me that  a member of the measuring firm would be an ideal candidate for the "Q&A Interview" Thread on the forum.  Involving anyone from the firm on the forum would be a great help.

Or maybe the Museum at the Alexander Palace would have the definitive answer.

[pers]

ASSUMING the measurements of the World Monuments is correct, the only way it will work is as follows:  The measurements of the windows will be 5 feet, and the walls between the windows will be 6 feet.  The rooms in the Imperial wing will measure 19 feet by 30 feet.  IF the width of the wing is 80 feet, that will mean the measurements will be: outer wall 3 feet, room 30 feet, wall 3 feet, passage 8 feet, wall 3 feet, room 30 feet, outer wall 3 feet.  This will tie in with the internal measurement according to the World Monument people of 74 feet.  The doors are about 5 feet wide, and the distance from the window to the door in the cross section will be 3 feet.

[Douglas]

One of the problems of measuring the actual width of the Imperial  wings is that they are not as wide at the front of the building as they are about thirty feet back.

This is a clever visual trick of the architect to give the front of  the structure a softer and less box-like  effect.

If you look carefully at the plan and photos you can see this unusual architectural detail more clearly.

The difference appears to about three and one half to four feet total.

[Reco]

This is the windows outside the Tsar's Reception Room
and the Working Study.

I put 11 square blocks in the window and I can put 12
square blocks between the windows. If 11 blocks = 5 feet, the wall between the windows measures 5 feet +1/11...  ( 60'' + 5,5'' = 65,5" )

The difference between the width of the window and space between the windows is not very large.

To simplify, we can think that the window has 5' and the wall has 5 1/2'

[Douglas]

Thank you Reco for your efforts to nail down the dimensions of the palace building.  

Hikaru says that you have to have persmission to measure things in Russia.  Can it be that difficult to get permission?  Can you be arrested for holding up a  tape  measure on the palace building?  

It might be possible to measure the palace when no one is looking.  That is what I usually do in these situations.  When a guard rebuffs me my usual reply is that I did not know it was a crime to measure things.  Then I apologize in a very polite manner.  This has kept me out of jail on more than one occasion.

Douglas

[Reco]

Hi Douglas,

If one day I am likely to go to Russia, I will make all my possible to obtain exact dimensions of the palace. That also formed part of the history.

I am surprised that Mr. Bobby Atchison does not seem to be interested in this problem.

Reco

[Sarushka]

I am surprised that Mr. Bobby Atchison does not seem to be interested in this problem.

As I understand it, Bob has been working for quite some time on a book about the Alexander Palace, which would explain his reluctance to divulge too much of his research in public. (How much longer, Bob??)  

[Reco]

Thanks you Sarushka for the information.