asylum for the imperial family

[carkuczyn]

I am curious as to why France did not offer the imperial family assylum after England backed down from their offer.  In his second letter to the Russian provisional government, King George suggested that maybe they could go to France since he could not help them.  Why was this never followed up on?  Or was it followed up on with France also refusing  to extend their hand?  Since Russia and France always had such a close working relationship and political ties, i find this puzzling.

[Richard_Cullen]

I don't think it is puzzling at all.  France had serious problems with its troops, at times they were close to mutiny.  All the great powers feared revolution and the spread of what became international communism.  They didn't wnat them for the same reason the British didn't.  Although my personal view is that their presence in England would NOT have caused a revolution.

Richard

[carkuczyn]

i agree that england was probably their last best hope but i would have thought that the provisional govt would have at least approached the issue with france.  i guess i did not realize that communism  was such a world wide threat.  another way of looking at it also is......germany was the major enemy of ww I and, indeed, a more imminent threat to the world.   yet the kaiser was able to escape.  surely he was more dangerous than the romanovs.  why could the kaiser obtain assylum and not the russian imperial family?

[griffh]

I don't think it is puzzling at all.  France had serious problems with its troops, at times they were close to mutiny.  All the great powers feared revolution and the spread of what became international communism.  They didn't wnat them for the same reason the British didn't.  Although my personal view is that their presence in England would NOT have caused a revolution.

Richard

Great points Richard!  Queen Victoria offered asylum to Louis Napolean and Eugenie in 1870 when her prolonged seclusion had rendered serious harm to the survival of the British throne.  The Queen was at her weakest point politcally when she gave the hated ex-Emperor of France and his equally hated Empress asylmn.

Though there was a great deal of agitation in the press and threats of revolt, it did not happen.  It was only her son, The Prince of Wales, near death in 1871 that rallied support for the throne once again and proved to be a turning point for the Queen herself.

Clearly Gerorge V was dealing with the threat of "World Socialism" and the threat to his throne was extremely real (there was also the Whitehall mutinty I believe), but I completely agree with Richard that no revolt would have occured if the late Emperor and his family had been given aslymn.    

I think that France was far more angry at the Romanoff's than afraid of their "autocratic" label.  France, of all the governments during the war, had the most to loose financially from Russia as they had the heaviest investors, and they had lost more of their productive male population, in proprotion to other countries fighting in the war than any other nation.  With the French I think it was spite more than fear.

The King of Spain, Alfonse XIII, married to the niece of the Young Empress, was the only monarch who consistently offered asylum to the Imperial family but, in my opinion he was too late.  

Richard I will be interested in your point of veiw but I think it was a question of timing more than anything else.  To me the only real door of opportunity was actually during the time that the late Emperor's children were down with measles, and possilby this door of opportunity even extended to the first few weeks that the Emperor returned from General Headquarters.  After those first few weeks of late March and early April (old style) events in Russia were moving too fast for anyone to be able to make a promise today and keep it tomorrow.  

My consolation for the death of the IF is that are some things that are higher even than the sancitity of human life, and one of those things in honor.  Even though fate closed the door of hope on the IF, the nobility of their faith elevated their lives above their death.  I don't want to sound morbid nor do I embrace the doctrine of sacrifice but I do believe that certain ideals are considered by people of faith to be even more sacred than the sanctity of their own human lives.  

to be continued...

[griffh]

This idea that I am presenting about "people of faith" comes from a series I saw about a man that killed his entire family, including his own mother right here in N.J.  The man was arrested and during his trial his Christian minister testified that the man could not have done these terrible murders because he was a "man of faith."  The man had been very active in his church.  But he had bought an enormous house and was really using the money from his mother’s estate to finance the purchase.  He had his mother move in to the new house and he presented to the world the picture of a prosperous Christian who was living the American dream.  Meanwhile he was fast running out of capital.  Then he got fired from his job.  For months, as the money dwindled away, he pretended to go to his job every morning.  Finally the day came when he was forced to tell his entire family that he was bankrupt and that the removers were coming to take everything away.  Instead he pretended as usual to go to work and then he snuck back to the house.  First he shot his mother in her upstairs bedroom.  Then he waited until his wife returned with from the market and shot her, and then he waited as each of his three children returned from school and shot them as they came in the front door.  Apparently the youngest boy gave him the most trouble as the child kept dodging the bullets, but he managed to finally kill him. 

This man escaped somehow just after the trial or possibly even during the trial.  I can't remember for certain, but anyway he was gone for 11 years.  The family of the murdered wife never gave up and finally the man was found in Florida.  When he was returned for trial, his Minister said, "Eleven years ago I was asked if this man could have murdered his entire family and I answered, "No, that he was a ‘man of faith.’  The Minister continued, “It has taken me eleven years to understand that this man was not a ‘man of faith.’  The Minister explained, “When ‘people of faith’ are pushed against a wall with not possible escape, they turn to God.”  He continued, “When people of no faith are pushed against the wall with no possibility of escape, they become God.” 

I have grown up terrified most all of my life and because of this constant state of terror,  to me there was nothing greater than the sanctity of my own life.  But no matter how hard I tried to live a peaceful life, I was not allowed and gradually I began to realize that my dreams, my ideals, my honor were of greater value than even the ends of my own life.  In fact I learned that I could not separate the value of my ideals from the value of my own life. 

So I my mind, the IF's family had higher ideals than even the sanctity of their individual lives.  That is not to say that I would not have loved to seen the Young Empress once again promenading on the Isle of Wight, with her sisters, Victoria Milford Haven and Ella, and of course with her beautiful daughters and her dear boy, Alexis, not to mention a smiling Nicholas on her gracious arm.....grateful to have survived the horrors of an experience her grandmother told her could not last….         

[carkuczyn]

so griff, if i am following you correctly, i get that you are saying that the imperial family got to the point to where they looked at the situation fatalistically and believed that it was God's will that they would not be able to escape?  while some people might view this in such an idealistic light.....there are others who would say that they simply became so clinically depressed by their situation that they just gave up.  either view is believable.

[carkuczyn]

also are you saying that the kaiser escaped because he was willing to compromise his "ideals" and do whatever to get out of germany with his life, while the imperial family clung to their ideals to the end....no matter what that end would be?

[Belochka]

so griff, if i am following you correctly, i get that you are saying that the imperial family got to the point to where they looked at the situation fatalistically and believed that it was God's will that they would not be able to escape?  while some people might view this in such an idealistic light.....there are others who would say that they simply became so clinically depressed by their situation that they just gave up.  either view is believable.

I would say the better expression would be that the I. F. viewed their situation not fatalistically but always with hope. I do not believe that Nikolai was clinically depressed. He accommodated to his surroundings with great humility.

Margarita

[griffh]

Carkuczyn I did not mean to imply that the IF lost hope.  I have to say that I am with Belochka on this point 100%.

I am sorry for the confusion.  I was trying to make two points.  One was that the IF's window of opportunity passed very quickly and I believe it was gone by the time they got on board their train for Tobolsk.  I don't believe that the IF knew this however.  They seem to always be guided by their faith and it seems from the letters I have read during their arrest that they continued to have hope and did look forward to a brighter future.

What I was trying to say about faith was that I feel less depressed about their death when I realize that they died with their honor unsullied. 

I think the Kaiser's was able to escape because his officers moved very quickly and were able to drive him over the border within days of his abdication.  The Kaiser did not have to worry about his wife or children.  In some ways the German Revolution, was much more civilized than the Russian Revolution.  The Kaiser, as I said had the help of his loyal officers who arranged the caravan of cars and who forged papers to hide the identity of the Kaiser and whose rank at the border overcame any suspicions the border guards may have had.  The Kaiser also had the steadfast support of Queen Wilhelmina who protected the Kaiser for the next twenty years until his death in 1941. 

Beckendorf wanted the Empress to leave immediately following the abdication, but she would not go without her children, and she would not risk moving her children because of their illness.  She was also disoriented because she had lost contact with her husband. 

There was the same rapid response from the Russian's faithful to the Emperor and Empress but the children's illness played a decisive role in the family's fate.  And nlike the Kaiser, the IF moved as a single unit.   

[griffh]

I just wanted to catch one of my mistakes.  Queen Ena of Spain was not a niece of the Empress Alexandra, she was one of her younger cousins.  Sorry about that.  Prince Philip's mother, Princess Alice of Greece, was a niece of the late Empress. 

[AGRBear]

The loyality Nicholas II felt toward his country showed up each time he was asked to leave Russia in those early days. He refused because he would not leave Russia.  As the days, weeks and months passed,  he continued to be loyal to Russia by refusing to leave.  Nicholas II's areas of confinements  changed guards,  Duma to Prov. Govt to the Bolsheviks.  It was these last guards who made it  difficult to leave because it had to involve  "escape".  But, first, and formost, Nicholas II had to have wanted to escape....

In his last apeal to the people Nicholas II  had thought were about to rescue himself and his family from the Ipatiev House,  he required  that no one be hurt because of him and his family.

There are many who do not consider Nicholas II's actions as being "loyal".

Being old enough and remembering the old loyalities between country and family dedication,  I  view his actions as being loyal.

In Grand Duchess Marie's book EDUCATION OF A PRINCESS  she voiced this loyality p. 6

>>"There is one thing, however, which comes to me from the past and which I treasure beyond anything else, present or to come, and that is my love for my country.  This devolution was implanted in me by my family  In their great deeds and even in their failures, the Romanovs of all generations placed the interests and glory of Russia above any personal calculations.  Russia was part of their soul and their body.  To them the demanded sacrifice was never too great, and this they poved with their lives.  I pray that their spirit many animate me to the end of my days."

New AYork City, 1930<<

I believe because of  Nicholas II's faith in God that he placed his and his families bodies and soul into God's hands.

Yes,  Nicholas II was fatalistic, if that is the term you would rather use,  and had been since his early religious teachers had drilled into him that he had been born on Job's Day.

From early age to his last day,  Nicholas II was loyal to his country and to his God and to God's will.

Too simplistic?  Perhaps.  But I have never thought Nicholas II to be a stupid  man because he believed he had been chosen by God to rule Russia and that he believe  God who in the end chose him to die as he did, when he did and with whom.  He was the product of his times.

Every once in awhile,  I'll burn a candle for Nicholas II  and his family, whom truly believed in God's will.

The German Kaiser Wilhelm II wanted to survive and so he quickly accepted a place of exile.  He wasn't a fatalist nor so caught up in his religion to believe he'd wait for God to save him and so he saved himself.  And, being a man who was realistic,  he knew loyality to him was fading and fading quickly.  Germany no longer needed or wanted him.

Too simplistic?  Perhaps.  But in the end the Kaiser and his family lived for another day.

AGRBear

[Alixz]

I had always thought that Denmark would be the country to give the family asylum.  Why not?  Nicholas was a nephew of King Christian X and grandson to Christian IX.  Why did they not do something at least in the interim.  Let them at least stay there until another solution (perhaps Spain) was found.

The measles were an unfortunate stumbling block.  Personally, I would have packed the children up and moved measles and all!  I would have left the picture albums and other personal momentos and just gotten my family to safety.  (Unlike the afore mentioned Grand Duchess Marie Pavolvna who left her child behind).

But then, I am looking at it from the end perspective and I know the outcome.  Alix did not, and probably thought that they had enough time.

Loyalty to one's country is all fine and good, but if one is an unwanted autocrat whose country doesn't care about one's loyalty anymore, then, go like the Kaiser (whose children were older and on their own so that was why he didn't have to concern himself with their safety). 

Go and save your family and worry about all the material things they later.  I have always seen all of the Romanovs as too concerned about what they brought with them.  Perhaps that was because they saw the need to use these things for future survival and income, but I have always just seen incomprehensible attachment to things that just didn't matter.

So Alix got to keep her picture books, but she lost her life and that of her family.

[griffh]

While I agree with you AGRBear about both the Emperor and Empress' loyalty to Russia.  There is no doubt about that.  However in the early days of April 1917 Anne Morrow points out that the late Emperor was under the impression that he was going to England. 

In her book, "Divided Cousins," Anne states:  "In an almost childlike mood of optimisim, Nicholas revealed his hopes, writing in his diary in his elegant hand on 5 April 1917 (old style): 'I began to pack the belongings which I shall take with me, if fate wills that I am to go to England.'  His two older daughters, Olga and Tatiana, with the hopefulness of youth were seen by one of the household, Sestra Effronssina, their nurse, busying themselves, making 'everything ready for England.'  Having been to stay with the King, they fondly remembered happy family times and noticed that their mother seemed to dwell constantly on her life with her grandmother in England."

"The servants began to pack the Tsar's English uniforms, certain thatthey would soon be leaving Russia, touchingly imagining his life of military ceremonial would continue in England."

But this early expectation of exile in England certainly does not undermine what AGRBear has stated.  The Emperor's was willing to accept exile if that would bring greater stability to his people.  I feel that he was willing to leave for the betterment of his country, but as the war effort disintegrated and Provisional government started to loose control, I believe it was then that the Emperor refused to leave his country.   

By 28 July 1917 (old style) the late Emperor wrote in his diary that he had "just learned that they are going to send us not to the Crimea, but to a town in the East.  But where precislely?  No one can say." 

And by the time of the Bolshevik coup in October 1917 (old style), and once Russia started to slide into chaos the Empreor, like his wife and mother, refused to abandon their country.  But from reading their letters from Tobolsk I still have the impression that they had not given up hope.   

 


   

[AGRBear]

... [ in part],,,,

The measles were an unfortunate stumbling block.  Personally, I would have packed the children up and moved measles and all!  I would have left the picture albums and other personal momentos and just gotten my family to safety. 

....

BEAR:  In those times, measles could have been fatal, and,  I think one of the grand duchesses who had lost her hair,  had been near death, therefore,  packing up and moving the children may have killed  one of them.

I'm not sure how many mothers and fathers would sacrifice even one child to save themselves and the other members of their family. 

Some people in those times did make those decisions and did leave members of their family....  But,  it haunted them the rest of their lives when they did.

I am not sure what I would have done.  We do know what Nicholas II and Alexandra did.

ALIXZ: 

But then, I am looking at it from the end perspective and I know the outcome.  Alix did not, and probably thought that they had enough time.

BEAR:  Maybe this was her thought.  Does anyone have anything she wrote which tells us what she was thinking?

ALIXZ:

Loyalty to one's country is all fine and good, but if one is an unwanted autocrat whose country doesn't care about one's loyalty anymore, then, go like the Kaiser (whose children were older and on their own so that was why he didn't have to concern himself with their safety). 

BEAR:  I'm not sure if they realized how much hatred there was boiling up inside the revolutionaries and the peasants. 

ALIXZ:

Go and save your family and worry about all the material things they later.  I have always seen all of the Romanovs as too concerned about what they brought with them.  Perhaps that was because they saw the need to use these things for future survival and income, but I have always just seen incomprehensible attachment to things that just didn't matter.

So Alix got to keep her picture books, but she lost her life and that of her family.

BEAR:   You and I agree that we would have saved our family and worry about picture books and other material things after we had reached a safe place.

One can't fight the enemy if one is dead, so,  do what you can to survive so you can fight another day.

To me,  Nicholas II didn't seem to have any fight left in him.

AGRBear

[griffh]

"To me,  Nicholas II didn't seem to have any fight left in him."  Wonderful point Bear, wonderful point.  Light a candle for me, Bear, light a candle for me.