Author Topic: OTMA - 'look'  (Read 92046 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Holly

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1411
  • www.otma.org
    • View Profile
    • otmaa.org
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2006, 10:29:50 AM »
You know what bugs me more than a so-called silly question? Launching into the banal vs. academic discussion EVERY TIME something like this comes up.

The debate rages on, but Bob & FA's policy remains -- like it or not, trifling questions *will* be tolerated. IMO, both sides of the issue need to just get used to it.

If you tend to ask trivial questions, be prepared for a bit of teasing from time to time. As long as it doesn't get personal, try not to take offense. There *is* a difference between spoofing a question and actually putting down the person who asks it.


I have to agree with you Sarah. This question may not be academic to some people but others are just curious about these kinds of things. So, therefore, it is academic. It does belong in the Having Fun section, just on the fact that Having Fun is for SILLY QUESTIONS. It isn't silly to some of us, but since certain members of this forum have little compassion, tolerance, and self-control it should probably belong there. And, David, there is a difference between -trying- to be witty and being a jerk.  ;)
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

http://www.otmaa.org -- Coming Soon.

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2006, 06:59:50 PM »
Well, I think it true that it is is hard to make educational/academic topics about otma. Anyway, I think it is educational to even be on this forum posting about them, in my view. If people want to poke fun, then let them do that. Too many threads have become insults or attempts at dubious humour, often at the expense of people's feelings. And it is important to consider the feelings of the people involved, like it or not. I can laugh at myself ( I started the Tatiana as a 1920s beauty one), I don't mind sarcasm. I woudn't do it myself, because I think we should respect each other, but it doesn't bother me. I think we can be trivial, and serious.I think it's important just that we are on the forum, interested in some aspect of history.

xX_Marilyn_Xx

  • Guest
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2006, 07:24:02 PM »
I think we're really running out of things to talk about....our knowledge of them only stems so far. We don't personally know them. All of our knowing comes from what people have written about them in their memoirs, and diaries, etc. From memory, one can only write so much. Therefore, after all of this written material has been torn to pieces, what is left besides discussing trivial things such as haircuts? Afterall, it isn't as if this topic is taking up a GREAT deal of space on the board, and discussions like these are fun for the most part. Pointless and redundant, yes, but fun all the more. :)

Don't make so much out of it!

Amelie  :D

azrael7171918

  • Guest
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2006, 07:42:44 AM »
 I agree.  These are not earth shattering questions or comments but they are fun. 

For so many decades so little was known about the girls. To some of us it makes them more human. I am not one of the younger members I am 51 and get a kick out of knowing little things. I loved learning they drank Coca Cola, listened to music loudly to annoy their mother. The photos where Marie and Anastasia are making faces for the camera they were typical teenagers.

Actually I would be curious to hear who decided on their hair styles and cuts. Did Alexandra say do it this way and maybe Olga or Marie would say I don't like it that way Or in todays attitude Hey it's my hair.

These types of questions make them human and brings to mind that they died young.

Azrael

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2006, 08:34:54 AM »
Well put, exactly. This why we want to know these sorts of things, and it isn't just trivial to want to know them, it is relevant. It makes them seem more human, and more relevant than just some figures from an old picture young a century ago. We learn more about their times, and the greater events that connect us to things if we absorb the little details about these young women. They weren't just girls who died young in tragic and horrifying circumstances. They were Romanovs, members of the Imperial Family, who never got to play the importance their roles assigned them at birth, but everything they did was important, and even in the little details that is true. They were human, and it is nice to know that, but it also reminds you once you know this, of what position they had.

Offline clockworkgirl21

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2667
    • View Profile
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2006, 09:06:54 PM »
They drank Coca-Cola? Gosh, I love that!  :D

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2006, 10:26:44 AM »
Yes, I do too. It helps make them seem relatable- and if you can't relate to history, sometimes it seems dry.

Offline Taren

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
    • The Chick Manifesto
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2006, 12:59:45 PM »
I just thought of something. Naturally, Anastasia would have to have regular haircuts. She had to maintain her bangs/fringe.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2006, 02:05:43 PM »
To help satisfy David's needs to make something serious out of girls getting their haircuts,  let me give it a try.

Since I'm old enough to remember some of the old "myths",  there was one myth which was carried down in Christian religions about women who had their hair cut.

Here is a site if you'd like to learn more:

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/hair/history.html

My different families who lived in Russia  were from the religious teachings of  Martin Luther's, and, from what I understand it [the myth] was considered just as true  in the Romanov Catholic communites, however,  I'm not sure if the Russian church had these same myths, but, it's probable that it was since this myth is  based in the Christian religions.

The myth:  A girl could go without a head cover until she was wed.  However, she could not cut her hair.  If she did,  it was broadcasting to the community that she had sinned and this sin was usually based on sexual activity.  The exception to the rule was illness. An unmarried girl could wear her hair down.  A woman once she was married, covered her head and her hair was pulled upward into a bun of some kind.

Ths aristocractic women always had a variety of styles but in the times of the grand duchesses,  the hair styles had been a carry over of what is known as the "Victorian Age"  which of course their mother, Alexandra, was tied to in fashion as well as being the granddaugther of Queen Victoria of Great Britain.

Hair was long and allowed to be worn down by the girls and then pulled up into some kind of hairdo after the age of "coming out" which was around 16 or 17 years of age.  But still could be worn down under certain circumstances until marriage.  Married women kept their hair long and drew it up and back into some kind of bun or hair piece.

So,  who are what changed this attitude toward short hair for the grandduchesses?

I believe it was the measles.

But what came before the measles?  What allowed them to accept short hair and not be bothered and hide their heads, which they would have just say in Alexandra's time at that same age if it had occured to her?

I believe it was Nicholas II's love of new fangle things.  One of which was the moving picture shows brought in from Europe and especially from the US.

These dare devilish female movie starlets hair was cut shorter and shorter until the hair was very short.

Take a look at the pictorial history of the silent screen and you'll hair from 1912 to 1916 and you can see how it does it shorter and shorte.   By the 1920s I believe the term used when a girl was getting her hair cut very short,  was  she had gotten it  "bobbed".

Well, as it happens,  what the Tsarians and their daughters do in style, be it hair or dress, trickled down through the various levels of society.

I remember the story my mother tells about her older sisters who were told they couldn't cut their hair because it was a  "sin".

Her sister begged their mother because some of their friends were wearing the shorter hair styles.  But their mother and father stood firm.

One day, while the parents were gone,  the sisters were whinning and complaining how out of style they were..... and how it would affect them getting boys....  Their oldest brother got so weary of the complaints  that he found his mother's sissors and wack wack with the blades and the hair of his sister's fell to the floor and so his sisters had "bobbed" hair  [well almost, the hair was short and then shaped later].  When the parents came home there was a lot of "carryings-on" over the short hair cuts.  But,  hair doesn't just suddenly get long, again.  So,  it was done and that was that.  Now, how to make the best of it.  Not to lose face,  my grandmohter never admitted that she hadn't allowed her precious girls to cut their hair.  "Afterall,  short hair is all the rage these days,"  one of the sisters recalled their mother saying to some lady friends the following Sunday.

Fashion can even make religious myths become obsolete.

Who benifited?  Well, dear David, many people benifited.  The peasant women who knew about thrift didn't just cut their hair and throw it away, it was sold to the wig people.  The sissor factories benifited because women hair saloons started to pop up everywhere. So, if more sissors are needed then that trickles down into the minning of metals....

Even soap factories started to benifit because women could wash their hair more often and they didn't want to use the same soap used for laundry....

More women found blondes had more fun....  Hair bleaches sprang forth from the old stuff.

Hair pieces had become cheaper and those who liked to have long hair but not deal with it attached to their head for 24 hours a day,  purchased them.

I'm sure there are many things I haven't voiced.

David,  I can still see you have a frown.

How about this then:  Once the hair became shorter, women could wash their hair more often which means lice and ticks were going down the drain and a woman's health improved because of  "haircuts".  ;D

AGRBear
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 02:16:40 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

David_Pritchard

  • Guest
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2006, 11:49:20 PM »
Thank you very much Bear for you contribution.  :D

As a former Cincinnatian, I appreciate the comments on historical soap. I do not know how many of the readers have encountered old fashion soap but it was wretched on the skin and hair, much harsher than modern washing powders and detergents. When in Russia the first time I naively used some old fashioned lye soap to wash my hands, I was allergic, it left painful horrible blisters on my hands that took about two months to heal.

David

Nadezhda_Edvardova

  • Guest
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2006, 11:48:23 AM »
You're a riot, David.

Actually, the regularity of haircuts (and the lack thereof) is an interesting aspect of our understanding of society and how it functioned in the past.  Social history is a well-respected legitimate form of historical inquiry. Haircuts and hairstyles are just one component of our understanding of life in days gone by. 

No, I don't know if they had regular haircuts.  I suppose the thing to do would be to study the family's financial transactions and learn if they were billed for haircuts.  I know Nicholas's expenses, on this site, include payments for barbaring.  Get thee to GARF!

I have very long hair, comparable to what ladies wore back in the early 1900's.  Probably comparable in length to the Grand Duchesses.  (I can tuck it into the waist of skirts and trousers.)  My experience is that one must have a trim occasionally, as the ends break and split.  Broken or split ends lead to awful tangling, especially at the back of my neck.

And the frequency of haircuts, David (because you asked!), can be an important economic indicator.  Quantity of haircuts demanded is probably moderately elastic, such that in a period of inflation, quantity of haircuts demanded would fall.  Meanwhile, nationwide demand for haircuts itself would fall during a famine, as family resources are shifted from optional items to basic necessities.  Almost ironically, during such economic conditions, the number of hair-cutters would increase, as peasants turn away from unprofitable agricultural pursuits to the more lucrative markets affected by the inflation. 

The ultimate effect of these conditions is to render everyone skinny, coiffed, and incredibly chic.

The imperial family's great wealth would obviously insulate them from such effects, and they would receive haircuts at the same interval throughout the business cycle.  However, being patriotic, they would foregoe luxuries in hard times in order to demonstrate solidarity with those more severely affected.

Back off, man. I'm an economist.

Pax, N.

(No, really.)


Offline Margarita Markovna

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 3809
  • Call me Ritka :)
    • View Profile
    • My Yahoo Group for OTMA! Join!
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2006, 12:38:17 PM »
Look at the 1913 formal picture that was posted earlier, and look at this one.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/margaritamarkovna/1914colored003.jpg

It's at least a good four inches shorter than the previous year. She herself probably grew in the year, but not enough to make it appear that much shorter.

Janet_W.

  • Guest
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2006, 05:09:38 PM »
From haircuts to Coca-Cola to National Geographic and swing music. Whew!

Okay, as has been pointed out via the Wikipedia link, it's possible the grand duchesses drank Coca-Cola because it had been formulated in the late nineteenth century and also marketed abroad. However, do we have verification that it was exported to Russia and was purchased for the royal household?

National Geographic also has been around long enough to have been on the reading tables of people of that era. But again, do we have verification that the Romanov library received a subscription to the publication?

As for swing music, here's more from Wikipedia:

"Swing music, also known as swing jazz, is a form of jazz music that developed during the 1920s and had solidified as a distinctive style by 1935 in the United States. Swing is distinguished primarily by a strong rhythm section, usually including double bass and drums, medium to fast tempo, and the distinctive swing time rhythm that is common to many forms of jazz."

But if you're talking ragtime . . . well, it's possible the grand duchesses enjoyed ragtime because it was an exceptionally popular form of music during the years when they were adolescents and teenagers. Irving Berlin, who had been born in Russia, was one of ragtime's most famous composers. I don't find it incongruous to think they may have played some of his recordings and those of other ragtime composers on their grammaphone, though I doubt their parents would have been overjoyed by the loud, raucous and syncopated sounds!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 05:14:11 PM by Janet_W. »

Nadezhda_Edvardova

  • Guest
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2006, 08:49:38 AM »
I think in Greg King's book The Court of the Last Tsar there's a reference indicating invoices for Coca-Cola have been found in Alexander Palace records.  Can someone check?  Pax, N.

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: OTMA - 'look'
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2006, 08:57:04 AM »
It is interesting to learn small details about their daily lives that helps you understand their historical importance better. I am not sure what sort of music they listened to, but isn't there that story about how one of the two pair's of girl's bedrooms was over some room of Alexandra's where she recieved visitors? And when she had visitors, the girls would turn the gramophone on loudly and be very noisy above, thus disturbing Alexandra and her visitors? I read that one of these threads, and it is a very funny story, and makes them relatable.