Author Topic: Stress under captivity/Awareness of her family's fate  (Read 54076 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #150 on: August 03, 2007, 12:03:40 AM »
I agree totally with the first post of Belochka. As for Gleb Botkin's assertions, yes, he wouldn't know the Imperial Children that much. This mean just that he wasn't with them every single day of his life as it seems to be the case when you read his books. But certainly he knew them and could speak about them. He would see them time to time, but his father, who was devoted to the Imperial family to the point he broken with his wife for he would spend more time close to the Tsar and his family than to her and their own children, was always at the Palace. Surely, Doctor Botking would tell a lot of his experiences with NAOTMAA to their children. It's a little like anyone of you and a relative who would live in other State or province. You don't see him/her every single day, and it could simply be, you are not intimate with he/she...but you could know about their personalities pretty well, knows how they looks, etc...

Besides, almost all info I know about Olga goes in the same sense...So, Botkin doesn't contradict what we already knew concerning her.

RealAnastasia.

dmitri

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #151 on: August 03, 2007, 09:02:23 AM »
Yes I think Gleb Botkin overstated his association with the Imperial family to a very large extent. There is far more to him than meets the eye.

mr_harrison75

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #152 on: August 05, 2007, 01:15:10 PM »
I know that Gleb Botkin rises very strong reactions on this Forum (to say the least), but could it be because he supported AA's claim? Does that mean that his assessment and account of the different members of the IF is unreliable? How do we know that Gilliard, or Virubova and Buxhowden's accounts are completely reliable, for that matter?

After all, Gleb Botkin met Olga Nikolaevna a few times, we didn't....so when he said that Olga realized what was happening (to some degree), I tend to believe him.

On the other hand (and this is where I agree with many of you) , what we will never know (unless we'd find something written by Olga's hand) is to what extent she acknowledged the menace to her family, and what it meant for their close future?

dmitri

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #153 on: August 05, 2007, 01:22:21 PM »
I think the reason why Botkin is considered unreliable is he was only a child and did not meet the imperial children very often at all. The others were adults with years of contact with them. There is the difference. Teachers get to know their students and Gilliard taught the imperial children for years. Gibbes also knew them well. As for Buxhoeveden she was believed by many Romanovs and the sisters of Alexandra Feodorovna. Xenia did believe her as did Olga. Maria Feodorovna also knew her well. Remember Victoria Milford Haven knew Buxhoeveden before the revolution quite well and would never have had her work closely for her if she had any problems. She knew all too well what had happened to her sisters and was grateful for the kindness of Buxhoeveden to her sister. Buxhoeveden left things to Xenia in her will as well. 

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #154 on: August 06, 2007, 05:58:52 PM »
I'm getting curious...Which was Gleb's age in 1918?

RealAnastasia.

helenazar

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #155 on: August 06, 2007, 06:17:56 PM »
I know that Gleb Botkin rises very strong reactions on this Forum (to say the least), but could it be because he supported AA's claim? Does that mean that his assessment and account of the different members of the IF is unreliable?

To me, Botkin is unreliable mostly because he seemed a little batty in general. Ok, maybe a lot batty... I mean he started some sort of a weird religious cult for gods sakes, what does that tell you? I'm sorry, maybe I am being too harsh, but knowing that, I don't think I would trust him as far as I could throw him...  :P

mr_harrison75

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #156 on: August 06, 2007, 06:37:15 PM »
Your point is conceded, Helen_A, although everyone can say the truth, even if once in awhile...  ;D

helenazar

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #157 on: August 06, 2007, 06:43:17 PM »
Your point is conceded, Helen_A, although everyone can say the truth, even if once in awhile...  ;D

Yes, but you never know when it is the truth and when it's some delusion or downright lie, hence "unreliable"  ;).

mr_harrison75

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #158 on: August 06, 2007, 06:51:41 PM »
Touché!  :D

So, Gleb Botkin: unreliable. What about the other evangelists?  ;)

helenazar

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #159 on: August 06, 2007, 07:02:19 PM »
Touché!  :D

So, Gleb Botkin: unreliable. What about the other evangelists?  ;)

If you are referring to the "evangelists" as in Jimmy Baker/Oral Roberts types, I would say ditto, but I am sure some others would strongly disagree with me  ;)  8).

mr_harrison75

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #160 on: August 06, 2007, 07:17:08 PM »
Ah, you know what I mean!  ;D  8)

I seem to recall though that Anna Virubova was the only one who spoke of the treason of the boatswain Derevenko; and I noticed that in the Romanovy movie, they didn't show it as such...

And it's only Virubova who spoke of this, isn't it?

helenazar

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #161 on: August 06, 2007, 07:26:35 PM »

I seem to recall though that Anna Virubova was the only one who spoke of the treason of the boatswain Derevenko; and I noticed that in the Romanovy movie, they didn't show it as such...

I don't know if Vyrubova was the only one who talked about Derevenko or not, but they did imply in the movie that the boatsman was at the very least a thief (remember he stole Alexei's clock - I think it was a clock?), and Alexei later saved his hide by telling them that he gave it to him as a gift.... In any case, I am not sure I fully trust Vyrubova either. Everyone has their own take on the story, no matter how well meaning they are, and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. But of course there are witnesses who are much less reliable than others, it's just different degrees of unreliability... We have to take everything with a grain of salt unless there are additonal accounts to corroborate the information.

BTW, it's not like that movie is the epitomy of reliability either, although it is better than some of the others out there, they made some mistakes in it... one example comes to mind, where Alexandra kept telling N that the Kaiser was his cousin, while he was really hers... I believe that Willy was Nicky's uncle twice removed or something like that...

« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 07:28:37 PM by Helen_A »

mr_harrison75

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #162 on: August 06, 2007, 07:35:03 PM »
Ah, it's not how I understood the scene...I thought he really did give him the egg as a parting gift, since Derevenko had to leave before 4 PM, or something like that...

Yeah, I agree about the mistake concerning the Kaiser, but no movies are perfect! Still, I love that movie! Even if there's some discrepancies in it...

But since it is only Virubova who speaks of the treason of Derevenko, can we consider this episode to be unreliable at best? I mean, I find difficult to believe that after 10 years, he would suddenly betray Aleksei, yelling at him, and abusing him, while on every pictures of him with the Tsesarevich, he seemed quite happy to be there...after all, if he was so sick and tired to be the babysitter, he could've certainly ask to be reassigned at another post, no?

Well, all this to say that I agree with you.  ;)

helenazar

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #163 on: August 06, 2007, 07:51:02 PM »
Ah, it's not how I understood the scene...I thought he really did give him the egg as a parting gift, since Derevenko had to leave before 4 PM, or something like that...

Oh no, he definitely didn't give it to him in the movie, D stole it, but the point of the scene was to show what a wonderful boy Alexei was, that he saved his friend Derevenko even though he knew he stole from him, he was loyal enough to him to tell white lie and save him... Of course this didn't happen in reality.

Yeah, I agree about the mistake concerning the Kaiser, but no movies are perfect! Still, I love that movie! Even if there's some discrepancies in it...

I think it's a good movie too, but my point is that it is still the director's/producer's/writer's take on what happened, not completely ubiased facts... 

But since it is only Virubova who speaks of the treason of Derevenko, can we consider this episode to be unreliable at best?

Was it only Vyrubova who spoke of it? I thought some others mentioned it too, but maybe it was just second hand from Vyrubova's account... If no one else witnessed it and can corroborate, then we have to think of it this way: what motive would Vyrubova have to lie about it? If she didn't have any obvious motive, then perhaps it's true, if she did, then perhaps it's not true. Also, was Vyrubova reliable with other information she gave? If she was consistently reliable (i.e. others corroborated and she was never caught at lies, etc.) then chances are her account is more or less true, if she was consistently "shakey", then probably not... And finally, what kind of a person was she in general, what was she up to after the revolution, what did others say about her later on, etc. This is how you can figure out how reliable the person is... But ultimately, everyone does have the potential to lie or confuse things, so we must take everything with a grain of salt until it is evaluated farther...


mr_harrison75

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Re: Olga knew what was going to happen
« Reply #164 on: August 06, 2007, 08:21:04 PM »
Quote
Oh no, he definitely didn't give it to him in the movie, D stole it, but the point of the scene was to show what a wonderful boy Alexei was, that he saved his friend Derevenko even though he knew he stole from him, he was loyal enough to him to tell white lie and save him... Of course this didn't happen in reality.


I know this is one embelishment of the truth, shall we say, of the movie...but now that I think of it, we can see that Aleksei knows, and it breaks his heart, and Derevenko seemed to be uncomfortable while he was waiting...and I must admit that I found odd that he gave the precious gift of his father so easily...

If the Derevenko incident really happened, then it is very sad...

As for Virubova, I think we should verify if she was the one and only one who wrote about it...