Author Topic: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs  (Read 121911 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #345 on: July 01, 2005, 11:43:58 PM »
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"In my conversation with A and N, I also touched on two subjects, which have been raised by Protopopov, the expropriation of landowners' lands in favour of the peasants and equal rights for the Jews. It's typical that Alix did not voice any protest on these questions while he objected to the first and then appeared confused about the second, replying that it was equality only in the sense of widening of the Pale of Settlement; I protested strongly as I could, saying that concessions or new rights for the Jews were unthinkable, that we could not afford to be merciful to a race which the Russian people hate even more now because of their negative attitude towards the war and outright treason; it was noticeable that Alix didn't protest, obviously such projects do exist....On the day of my departure I wrote A a letter, in which I said that I was deeply upset that our conversation had resulted in absolutely nothing, and repeated that what I had said was not merely my own opinion but that of the overwhelming majority, that I had gone to her in the hope of finding an ally to help convince N to take the only possible and correct course, but she would not listen....'

I had edited Alix out of this earlier for brevity and now insert her back in.


I still find this letter confusing.  Sandro apparently did not favor redistribution of land and equal rights for the Jews.  And he says that Nicholas objected to land redistribution and thought the Jewish question was limited to extending the Pale.  That sounds as if Nicholas' views were largely aligned to Sandro's.  So onto what different course was he asking Alexandra to steer Nicholas?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #346 on: July 01, 2005, 11:53:03 PM »
As I said, I think I'm way out of my depth here. I think that Sandro meant that he thought N couldn't afford to show ANY 'weakness' and had to maintain a hardline since the average Russian (whom the monarchy depended on) would be outraged at any concessions. N seemed to not be taking as hard a stance as Sandro wanted. Since this was shortly before the abdication, Sandro feels there is some urgency to shore up their 'base' as it's called here in the US. The conversation referenced was part of a broader one discussing how to keep the monarchy from tipping over into the abyss.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #347 on: July 01, 2005, 11:57:08 PM »
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Nicholas to Empress Marie 27 Oct 1905:
It is amazing how they took place simultaneously in all the towns of Russia and Siberia. In England, of course, the press says that those disorders were organised by the police; they still go on repeating this worn-out fable.


One of the most balanced analyses of the role of the government in pogroms is on this site:  http://www.sog.uni-hd.de/lehrstuhl/POGROME.html.  I think it's worth a read in trying to sort out how different parts of the imperial government approached Jewish issues differently.

Some were working to maintain order and stop the pogroms, in part because they highlighted the regime's inability to control its internal affairs.  But others had a more sinister agenda.

One of the interesting aspects of tsarist government, going back at least to Nicholas I, was its ability to be two mutually-exclusive things at once.

The question is whether Nicholas was sincere in his desire to stop the pogroms, or whether he tried to maintain "credible deniabilty" to assert when circumstances required.

One thing seems certain -- tsarist officials who were removed for tolerating or even participating in pogroms sometimes popped up in official posts elsewhere.  In these cases at least, open defiance of the tsar's orders was not a career-ending event.

bluetoria

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #348 on: July 02, 2005, 07:07:52 AM »
Although I'm not in any way defending anti-Semitism, I think it's really important to remember that bigotry about many faiths/races was rife not only in Russia but throughout Europe in the 19th century. In Britain, for example, the re-establishment of the Roman Catholic hierarchy by Pius IX in 1850 led to widespread anti-Catholic feeling, & people in positions of power raised all kinds of objections to tolerance. The headmaster of Rugby demanded that a local postman be sacked because he was a Catholic. There were many instances of Irish Catholic immigrants being beaten up & little was done about it. One of my 'ancestors' was murdered in Leeds because he was a Catholic & little was done to find his attackers.
What was acceptable in those days, is seen as immoral today, but judging the Romanovs by the standards of their time - even if they did express certain prejudices - they were merely products of their generation. As an illustration of this, Jesus Himself spoke in racially prejudiced words when he addressed a Samaritan woman who came to Him for help. He said, 'It isn't right to take the children's food & give it to the house dogs,' - the term 'house-dogs' was a very insulting phrase used by the Jews to describe the Samaritans. I'm not saying Jesus was racist, rather that the language used by people of any generation often reflects that standards of their time, rather than any deep rooted hatred.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #349 on: July 02, 2005, 07:58:00 AM »
The question as it bears on Nicholas is whether he was within the general tenor of his times or whether he went beyond it in the vitriol of his views.  Again, I refer to the quote from a letter Nicholas wrote that was posted earlier on this thread:

"I was also fired by a hatred of the Jews, who crucified Christ."

To me, blaming anyone for something that happened 2,000 years earlier represents the extreme of bigotry.  There are reports that even some police officials who participated in or overlooked pogroms did so not because of any personal animus they had against Jews, but because they thought that was what was expected of them in their official capacity.  (It's in the link I posted a few messages back.)



Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #350 on: July 02, 2005, 08:06:02 AM »
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Tsarfan - even though you removed your post, as you say, within seconds of posting, don't you realise the damage that can be done in that space of time?   I still think you were extremely and unpardonably rude to Forum Admin - live with that if you like, but don't blame me.   I already thanked you for apologising to Forum Admin.


You thanked me, and I thought that ended the discussion.  But you then refused to drop the point by bringing it up again.

I am now requesting that the Forum Admin repost the message I removed.  Your continued obsession with this, Tsaria, is leaving the impression with other posters that I said something vile or untenable in that post.  I think they should be able to judge for themselves.

I simply was making the point that it is hard to discuss Nicholas' anti-semitism -- which was grounded in his interpretation of his religion -- without discussion of that interpretation.  And I suggested that if such a discussion bothers some people, as I'm sure it must, they might "switch channels" as it were on those particular posts.

I head Human Resources for an international company with a major office in London.  I'm well aware of British laws regarding discrimination, as we occasionally have to deal with issues in our workforce there.  To claim that anything on this thread has come even close to transgressing those laws is alarmist claptrap.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #351 on: July 02, 2005, 08:14:22 AM »
How is hating the Jews today for an event 2000 years ago not blaming them?

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #352 on: July 02, 2005, 09:07:49 AM »
Good morning from Texas. Oy vey.

Actually, I did mean to lock the thread, but it did not seem to. I am actually mostly glad it did not as, thankfully you "mostly" got back onto the right track. So, I will not lock the thread "provisionally" at this time.

As for Tsaria's email coming to me, it actually is because she was receiving threatening and abusive emails, during a particularly difficult time of some family problems. So, I suggested that all forum email would come to me, so that I could track down the source of them, and forward along any genuine email to her personally. Tsaria is a sweet, clever and dear person, but a wee bit "technology challenged" so that was the easiest solution.

Tsaria, thank you for your stalwart defense, but Tsarfan was accurate. I took no offense at all. I have had and continue to have far worse thrown in my face.  

As for intolerant views: THERE WILL BE NONE. Please THINK before you post about how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot. Just because something seems benign to you may cause great upset to someone of different religious view. EVERYONE will respect other religious beliefs period. THIS will be policed even more stringently than personal attacks are. I hope his is crystal clear.

Now then, the personal junk stops here and now. You may continue your discussion via PM if you wish, but it stops here and we return to the reasonable and I feel approprate examination of the late 19th early 20th century European/Russian views of anti-Semitism.

I feel that is fair. Carry on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

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The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #353 on: July 02, 2005, 09:30:04 AM »
From Spiridovitch, who spend years in personal contact daily with Nicholas II:There was an opinion widely repeated in which the Emperor had detested the Jews.  That is incorrect.  As he was a Russian, and a man well versed in political and social history, the Emperor would not love the Jews, however he never once displayed the slightest hatred toward them.  He always showed himself to be as equally fair in regards to them as he was to many other groups.
     Those who created the anti-Jewish policies were acting in accordance with their own personal beliefs, and were hiding behind the Emperor and were trying to make him the scapegoat for them.  All of that was for nothing.
     After the celebrated Beyliss trial, which  ended with a verdict which, while recognizing the ritual character of the murder, nevertheless acquitted Beyliss; the Tsar, informed of the verdict (he was then still at Yalta) said to someone in his entourage who later repeated his words to me:
     "It is certain that this had been a ritual murder.  However I am happy that Beyliss was acquitted, as he is innocent."

Spiridovitch re Dombadzye: Deprived of any instruction, however he was intelligent, cunning and positive and wily, he knew how to  monopolize his bosses and profit from their weaknesses.  He pretended to encourage and flatter not only his superiors, but also those near to them, including their wives.
     The population suffered greatly under Gvozdyevitch's machinations, but could do nothing against him because he had protectors everywhere.  Each new governor began his administration by announcing loudly that he intended to "chase out this scoundrel", but after just a little while Gvozdyevitch had become necessary and indispensible to the man, an invariable Michael Ivanovitch.  And so the arbitrary policeman continued both in Yalta and its suburbs to enrich himself here and there with new "plots" of land and new "little houses" which he had acquired under advantageous circumstances, so much so that having started out life as an errand-boy, he had become one of the richest landowners in the region.
     It was Gvozdyevitch who maneuvered General Dombadze, and Dombadze let himself be maneuvered completely, despite his pretensions of independence.
The socialists and the Jews were the principal elements against whom the police fought in Yalta.  However if, in regard to the socialists, the police were impartial and disinterested, so much more so as the police force watched them, it was not at all the same with regard to their attitude toward the Jews who could reconcile themselves with the policemen by knowing the right moment when to be "generous".
     It goes without saying that Gen. Dombadze was completely outside of these prevailing forces, and that he was not the least part touched by them, and was unaware of them deliberately.  He served only in his office and left his subordinates to serve in his name and to invoke his authority.  Every poor Jew, who did not have a right to domicile was immediately apprehended, rousted and expelled without any further legal process; while hundreds of other people, also without the right to domicile were not disturbed, because they had made their own private arrangements with the police.
     During Gen. Dyedyuline's stay in the Crimea, Gen. Dombadze made such a display of feelings of devotion for the Emperor and of such hatred for the revolutionaries that the commandant of the Palace was literally seduced and conquered by him. ...Pushed by Gvozdyevitch, Dombadze at that time created a major storm of trouble about several Jewish musicians, soldiers in the Praeobrazhenskaya Regiment, who were part of the military orchestra hired by the administration to play in the public garden in Yalta. He demanded their expulsion from Yalta, pretending that they could not be sure about their political views.  This was of course a manifest absurdity.  This "story" created an unbelievable row.  Dombadze was even more proud than ever before and walked through town with the air of triumph. Judge for yourself: he was not even afraid to expel soldiers from the Praeobrazhenskaya Regiment from Yalta!! When they learned about this story in the higher circles, one was contented to smile as Dombadze was treated as the source.  And, the source was strongly brought to account for the affair as his involvement in the affairs was a means of pleasure for him, and he wore that pleasure publicly."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

rskkiya

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #354 on: July 02, 2005, 10:08:42 AM »
I must agree with Tsarfan, the "sandro letter' is not much to go on ... If we had posts from Nicholas and Alix on the same discussion it would be interesting to compare their perspectives on this affaire.  
  *I do feel that it is important to explore the nature of antisemitism - it's roots so to speak .*

Its getting awfully chilly in here.

rskkiya

Finelly

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #355 on: July 02, 2005, 11:10:49 AM »
Tsaria - I said that to JEWS, the NT is a work of fiction.  I recognize that to many christians, it is not.  But if I am not allowed to say what Jews believe, when we are having a discussion about Jews, then who is the intolerant one?

As for the Beyliss case, the Tsar believed it was a ritual murder committed by Jews, just not by the Jew on trial.  The blood libel is not a singular event.  My ex husband recalls that in Romania, his family would have to stay home in the cellar on Easter and Christmas and other Christian holy days because there was a tendency of the Romanians to start up that kind of rumor again, even in the 1950s.  

Again, with the blood libel, it is a matter of pure ignorance.  If the people who believe that stuff KNEW ABOUT US, they would understand how bizarre it is!  We not only don't use blood to make matza, we don't eat blood at ALL!  When we buy meat that has been specially slaughtered, almost all the blood has been drained.  It is salted and allowed to sit and drain further at home before cooking.  

I'm still struggling to understand how stating what Jews believe is intolerant of christianity.  By no means would I ever, ever advocate that a christian abandon his or her beliefs.  I have no reason to, as I do not believe that only Jews can know God or have a place in the WOrld To Come or receive God's blessings.

rskkiya

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #356 on: July 02, 2005, 11:24:25 AM »
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As for the Beyliss case, the Tsar believed it was a ritual murder committed by Jews, just not by the Jew on trial.  The blood libel is not a singular event.  My ex husband recalls that in Romania, his family would have to stay home in the cellar on Easter and Christmas and other Christian holy days because there was a tendency of the Romanians to start up that kind of rumor again, even in the 1950s.  

Again, with the blood libel, it is a matter of pure ignorance.  If the people who believe that stuff KNEW ABOUT US, they would understand how bizarre it is!  We not only don't use blood to make matza, we don't eat blood at ALL!  When we buy meat that has been specially slaughtered, almost all the blood has been drained.  It is salted and allowed to sit and drain further at home before cooking.  

I'm still struggling to understand how stating what Jews believe is intolerant of christianity.  


The Beiliss Case is a real bone of contention for those who do not see the antisemitism of the Romanovs. I have to agree with Finelly about this.

rskkiya

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #357 on: July 02, 2005, 12:23:51 PM »
"I said that to JEWS, the NT is a work of fiction.  I recognize that to many christians, it is not.  But if I am not allowed to say what Jews believe, when we are having a discussion about Jews, then who is the intolerant one? "

Please do not speak for all Jews. I personally, being Jewish, was never taught by my Rabbi to see the NT as "a work of fiction".  We were encouraged to read the NT as literature, to better understand our gentile friends neighbors,  and taught that Jesus, a Jew probably really lived, was most likely trained in the Holy Temple, and was probably called 'rabbi'.  He was calling Jews to return back to the old ways when he chased the money lenders out of the Holy Temple. These events were taught to us as very likely real.  As a Jew, I would say that we differ on interpretation of some events and question the actuality of certain events. However I would NEVER say the NT is fiction, even more so in a public place where I knew many faithful Christians would read it. THAT is disrespectful.  



Finelly

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #358 on: July 02, 2005, 12:29:00 PM »
Ok, point taken.  But you were taught the NT as literature.  Not as an historical document.  And no doubt you also learned what the Talmud says about Jesus' fate in eternity.

If we're talking personal beliefs, I will say that I believe that Jesus was a person.  He was strictly orthodox and observant, as evidenced by the actions of his brother, Jacob/James the Just.  We simply (and I am SURE I speak for all observant Jews here) do not believe that he was messiah or the son of G-d)

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Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« Reply #359 on: July 02, 2005, 12:35:40 PM »
No single person should take this action personally, as it is not a result of any person's act. Bob A. has reviewed this thread and has directed me with no further explanation forthcoming, to lock the thread.

FA