Author Topic: Identification,please  (Read 87378 times)

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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2010, 05:25:12 AM »
It's a short of shepherdess outfit, so it's hard to date the picture from the clothes, but the hair seems to put it somewhere from the mid 1740s to the mid 1760s (when hair started to climb, at least that's what's indicated in my book 'La coiffure en France du Moyen Age a nos jours').  It is possible therefore that it's Charlotte Élisabeth Godefride de Rohan, wife of Louis Joseph de Bourbon, prince de Condé.  She died in 1760, but as he didn't marry again until 1798, it isn't likely to be his second wife - fashions would have changed dramatically.  It is possible that it is Louis Joseph's mother, Landgravine Caroline of Hesse-Rotenburg, who died in 1741, but the hairstyle suggests the woman would have lived a little later than her.


Offline gogm

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2010, 08:22:58 PM »
You got right to the problem. Karoline and Charlotte-Élisabeth look similar. Karoline lived from 1714 to 1741, Charlotte-Élisabeth from 1737-1760. The eyebrows of the mystery Princess Condé are closer to those of Charlotte-Élisabeth.

Offline HSH The Duchess of Bourbon

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2010, 07:25:54 AM »
It may not even be a Princess of Condé!? I'm thinking it could be the Louise Adélaïde de Bourbon, daughter of the above mentioned Louis Joseph and Charlotte de Rohan. Louise Adélaïde was styled Mademoiselle de Condé, but some sources foolishly call her the princess of Condé, so it could be her! Also the clothing suits her lifetime (1757-1824).

Also Louis Joseph did not marry until the late 1790's...
HSH The Duchess of Bourbon, Princess of the blood

Rani

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2010, 08:19:12 AM »


Mentioned as Philipe of Orleans. But don´t think so.
Thanks for helping

Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #110 on: October 11, 2010, 08:25:50 AM »

Courtesy of Grand Duchess Ally

"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

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Rani

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #111 on: October 11, 2010, 08:35:31 AM »
Thanks!!


Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #112 on: November 29, 2010, 10:38:25 AM »
Yes this is Prince Henri d'Orléans, second, but oldest surviving son of the Duke de Chartres and of his wife Françoise d'Orléans-Joinville. Henri was a famous explorer, but fbefore finding fulfillment in traveling the seven seas, he caused his parents many a headache due to his enormous gambling debts. The Duke de Chartres had to pay so much to settle these debts, that he was unable to provide as much as he wanted for his youngest son, the Duke de Guise, when Prince Jean married his first cousin Princess Isabelle of France.

Henri died untimely during one of his exploratory journeys. beloved by the family, in spite of his many failings, his brother named his own only son, Henri (1908-1999), in honor of his departed older brother. This second henri was better known as The Count of Paris, Head of House France from 1940-1999.

http://erhj.blogspot.com/2010/11/worthy-association-louis-philippe.html

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Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #113 on: January 01, 2011, 08:20:31 PM »
Trying again...

http://gogmsite.net/miscellaneous/princess-conde-cropped.html


Well, this portrait by Drouais was former supposed to be Charlotte-Godefride de Rohan, princesse de Condé.

But it was a false identification.

It's Marie-Louise-Elisabeth de Maillé, comtesse de Sorans (1742-1812). She was lady in waiting of Madame Clotilde and later of Madame Elisabeth, the two sisters of Louis XVI... The portrait was made in 1763, she was 21 y.o.
 
Original version - the version you have is a copy, a little clumsy ;-)


 

By the way, there is one other point :

- "Here is Caroline of Hesse- Rotenburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karoline,_Landgr%C3%A4fin_von_Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg.jpg
and here is Charlotte Elizabeth de Rohan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Charlotte_%C3%89lisabeth_Godefride_de_Rohan_as_Princess_of_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Nattier.jpg"

- "You got right to the problem. Karoline and Charlotte-Élisabeth look similar."

There is a reason for this : the portrait shown as Charlotte de Rohan on wikipédia, is not her, but Caroline of Hesse-Rotenburg... The old inscription on the picture is a mistake. It's the curator of the musée Condé of Chantilly, Nicole Garnier-Pelle, who wrote me this information...
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 08:51:36 PM by Bourgogne »

Offline Marc

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #114 on: January 02, 2011, 03:42:59 AM »
I guess someone will reveal the truth...Thank you for this information...There is also another speculation about this image:

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg/103px-Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg

http://www.geneall.net/D/per_page.php?id=4963

Sometimes it's labeled as Marie Anne de Bourbon-Conde and sometimes as Caroline von Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg...who is it in the end?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 03:45:45 AM by Marc »

Offline Mari

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #115 on: January 02, 2011, 05:43:54 AM »
Thank you Burgogne for finally identifying the Painting! That was quite a little mystery and explains a lot about the confusion if both of the other Paintings were the same Person!  :)

Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #116 on: January 02, 2011, 02:19:47 PM »


I guess someone will reveal the truth...Thank you for this information...There is also another speculation about this image:

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg/103px-Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon%2C_princesse_de_Cond%C3%A9%2C_Gobert.jpg

http://www.geneall.net/D/per_page.php?id=4963

Sometimes it's labeled as Marie Anne de Bourbon-Conde and sometimes as Caroline von Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg...who is it in the end?


Thank you Burgogne for finally identifying the Painting! That was quite a little mystery and explains a lot about the confusion if both of the other Paintings were the same Person!  Smiley

Marc I had noticed too this other speculation, and also checked it with the musée Condé de Chantilly : it's definitively Marie-Anne de Bourbon-Condé, not Caroline de Hesse-Rhinfels! Geneall.net is wrong, for once...

Mari you're welcome ;-)

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2013, 04:55:15 AM »
The following portrait is being sold at Bonhams as "Studio of François Hubert Drouais" and described as "A portrait of a child of the royal family, half-length, wearing the Order of the Holy Spirit and the Order of the Golden Fleece, thought to be Charles Philippe of France".  However, it's clear that the boy has blue eyes, and the portraits of Charles Philippe of France, Comte d'Artois and later Charles X, show him to have brown eyes.  From their portraits, the eldest brother, the short-lived Duc de Bourgogne, had brown eyes, the Comte de Provence, later Louis XVIII, also had brown eyes, and in fact the only boy in that family who had blue eyes was the Duc de Berry, Louis XVI.  I can't think of any boy of that age who would have been wearing the orders of the Holy Spirit and the Golden Fleece except one of the lineal descendants of Louis XV, and the costume seems a miniature version of the costume in the portraits of Berry, Provence and Artois as teenagers.  I don't think it's their father, the Dauphin, either since the wig in his portraits at roughly the same age is different.  So I think this is in fact Louis Auguste, Duc de Berry and later Louis XVI - what do others think?


Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #118 on: April 10, 2014, 12:17:22 PM »
The following portrait is being sold at Bonhams as "Studio of François Hubert Drouais" and described as "A portrait of a child of the royal family, half-length, wearing the Order of the Holy Spirit and the Order of the Golden Fleece, thought to be Charles Philippe of France".  However, it's clear that the boy has blue eyes, and the portraits of Charles Philippe of France, Comte d'Artois and later Charles X, show him to have brown eyes.  From their portraits, the eldest brother, the short-lived Duc de Bourgogne, had brown eyes, the Comte de Provence, later Louis XVIII, also had brown eyes, and in fact the only boy in that family who had blue eyes was the Duc de Berry, Louis XVI.  I can't think of any boy of that age who would have been wearing the orders of the Holy Spirit and the Golden Fleece except one of the lineal descendants of Louis XV, and the costume seems a miniature version of the costume in the portraits of Berry, Provence and Artois as teenagers.  I don't think it's their father, the Dauphin, either since the wig in his portraits at roughly the same age is different.  So I think this is in fact Louis Auguste, Duc de Berry and later Louis XVI - what do others think?



I reply very late, but anyway... :-) Yes, it's indeed a delightful portrait of the duke of Berry, later Louis XVI, in 1760, by Jean-Martial Frédou. There is another version of this portrait in Versailles, with a "pendant" showing his older brother the duke of Burgundy...

http://www.latribunedelart.com/deux-portraits-de-jean-martial-fredou-acquis-par-versailles


Offline Bourgogne

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2014, 02:01:28 PM »
I never saw a photo of the duchess of Nemours. I am not sure one exists...

There is a photo of Victoire on her deathbed.



Marie Charlotte, I have got this pic of the Orléans taken in Great Britain about 1855. I think that we can see Victoria von Sachsen Coburg und Gotha, duchess of Nemours, but I am not sure...
According to me, we can recognize, sitting from left to right: duke of Nemours with (?) her daughter Marguerite, future princess Czartoryski (1846-1893); duchess of Aumale (+1869) and his son Louis Philippe, prince of Condé (1845-1866); duchess of Orléans (??) dead in 1858 or princess of Joinville (??) dead in 1898; Clémentine d'Orléans, princess of Saxony Coburg and Gotha.
Standing, from left to right: count of Paris, duke of Chartres; prince of Joinville; duke of Aumale and, I guess, Victoria of Saxony Coburg and Gotha, duchess of Nemours.

REMI


Thanks a lot. I agree with you, but I am also not sure about this lady next to Clémentine.

I think this certainly looks to be the Princess of Joinville. She looks quite a bit like her daughter Francoise as well.

If that doesnt tip the scales...the women seems far too young to be the Duchess d'Orleans, who was 10 years older than the Princess de Joinville.



I would like to come back about this picture.

First, this picture was not made about 1855, but about 1865. This, for very simple reasons :

The little girl on the duke of Nemours' knees is his second daughter Blanche, born in 1857. The first daughter Marguerite, later princess Czartoryski, born in 1846, is the last lady standing on the right.

The last lady sitting on the right is not Clémentine, but Isabelle, countess of Paris, who married his first cousin in 1864.

(Btw the boy is not the prince of Condé but the duke of Guise, born in 1854)

Ok... But WHO is the lady sitting near Isabelle? This is my question. I can't believe it's the princess of Joinville, I don't recognize her features, and she would be at least 40 y.o., while this lady seems to be rather young. Could it be her daughter the duchess of Chartres, who married his first cousin in 1863? Maybe. But I don't find it very convincing, because she had a little mouth, and this lady seems to have a more large mouth...

Then who...?

Here a better version :