Author Topic: Catherine Howard  (Read 49795 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Catherine Howard
« on: October 18, 2006, 07:48:26 AM »
Well the other Queens have their own thread so Cat. Howard ought to have one also.
She was supposedly petite, plump and accomplished in the Courtly graces. Her father was Lord Edmund Howard, her mother, Jocasta Culpepper and she was born possibly around 1520. At about age 12 she was sent to her Step-grandmother's household to finish her upbringing.
In 1539 she was appointed one of Anne of Cleves maidens. We all know what happened next.
So was she a silly little tart.? Do you think she slept with Thomas Culpepper to try and provide a son for Henry or just for the sexual frisson.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2006, 07:50:24 AM »
Here she is;
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2006, 08:45:12 AM »
i personally don't have a good opinion on her. i think she was quite stupid, or silly at least.

here's the thing: let's give her credit and say she was smart enough to realize the importance a child would give her. do you really think that if she was smart enough to figure that out she wasn't smart enough to realize that her cousin had died on charges of adultery that weren't true? i'm sure everyone knew - although they probably didn't speak of it much - that the charges against anne boleyn were fabricated. don't you think that she should have realized the danger she was putting herself into by cheating on henry. as the queen she was in a very highlighted position and it would have been hard to conceil it...

i think she simply was not aware of what was happening. she probably thought 'henry loves me - he won't hurt me'. which shows how limited she was.
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2006, 08:57:14 AM »
Let's just put this way, Catherine was most likely not all that bright. She had a wild youth, and most likely didn't have that much intellect. She defintely wsn't encouraged to have any, nor educated not to be rather dumb. She was allowed to go her own way and have fun, so what she later wanted was that. She thought that is the way life was, no responsibility. When she got to be Queen of England, it was most likely even more what she thought, if she thought at all. She just followed the pleasures of today, without giving thought to the seriousness of what she was doing. She wasn't inocent, but she simply didn't know any better, with her upbringing. It is sad; I wonder if she ever knew a thing that happened to her as was said of Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt.

Offline ilyala

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2006, 09:01:48 AM »
Let's just put this way, Catherine was most likely not all that bright. She had a wild youth, and most likely didn't have that much intellect. She defintely wsn't encouraged to have any, nor educated not to be rather dumb. She was allowed to go her own way and have fun, so what she later wanted was that. She thought that is the way life was, no responsibility. When she got to be Queen of England, it was most likely even more what she thought, if she thought at all. She just followed the pleasures of today, without giving thought to the seriousness of what she was doing. She wasn't inocent, but she simply didn't know any better, with her upbringing. It is sad; I wonder if she ever knew a thing that happened to her as was said of Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt.

i think she became aware of what was happening when she was sentenced to death. i read that she suddenly became very serious and became had quite a dignifed death (she resigned herself to dying and thought she'd at least leave some respect behind...). maybe that was a sign that she was by nature intelligent but that her intelligence was quite dormant - upto the point where trouble struck and then it was too late.
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2006, 09:28:08 AM »
I think that her dignity at her death was due to her Howard blood maybe? Its a shame she didn't maintain some dignity whilst she was alive. I personally think she was a silly little kid who got thrown at Henry by her Howard relations. As far as "educated" goes, well there was a music master at the Duchess's household and also clerks and secretaries who could teach reading and writing. Catherine IMO was a promiscuous "wild-child" who had no thought of the consequencies of her actions. Also, how can we forget that Henry, at this time was a repulsive, foul-smelling old man-30 plus years her senior and weighing approximately 28 stone. Hardly a sexually attractive older man ;)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 09:34:03 AM by Kimberly »
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 10:01:57 AM »
I think that her dignity at her death was due to her Howard blood maybe? Its a shame she didn't maintain some dignity whilst she was alive. I personally think she was a silly little kid who got thrown at Henry by her Howard relations. As far as "educated" goes, well there was a music master at the Duchess's household and also clerks and secretaries who could teach reading and writing. Catherine IMO was a promiscuous "wild-child" who had no thought of the consequencies of her actions. Also, how can we forget that Henry, at this time was a repulsive, foul-smelling old man-30 plus years her senior and weighing approximately 28 stone. Hardly a sexually attractive older man ;)

that didn't stop catherine parr from being faithful.

there's something that i just read on a site that struck me: catherine howard, unlike katherine of aragon, anne boleyn and jane seymour, had spent no time at the english court. maybe she *was* unaware of what she was doing because she hadn't seen it happen before...
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2006, 10:22:17 AM »
You cannot compare Katherine Parr with Catherine Howard surely?  Katherine Parr was a mature, highly intelligent widow who had already "been there" with her previous husbands. She was someone who would adhere to her marriage vows through sickness and health.
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2006, 12:21:58 PM »
Well, Catherrine Howard may have been more intelligent than she is given credit for, possibly. It strikes me that she was just very young, inexperienced, and thought the way she had been raised was just the way life was. She didn't realize the seriousness of everything you did, especially if you were the wife of Henry VIII in 16th century England. But there may not have been much up there anyway. I think what happened to her jolted her, and possibly made her more aware. It seems that its when the bad things happen that we become more aware of the things we never see when the sun is shining and life is great. She had never been thrown into such a serious experience, and she was to die. That would wake most up..

Offline Yseult

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2006, 04:52:55 PM »
I always have felt a great pity for Cat Howard. She was a pretty, vivacious and merry girl. But she was not well-educated, she had not a clever mind and, in fact, she had not a bit of common sense. Of course, Cat was not a rose without a thorn, but I blame her upbringing and the influence of people as Jane, lady Rochford. Rochford was actively involved in the downfall of her own husband George Boleyn and her own sister-in-law Anne, but, later, she encouraged Cat to have secret meetings with Culpeper. Cat was a little crazy girl, but Jane Rochford was a wicked woman.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 12:21:40 AM »
She was indeed and she has her own thread here somewhere.
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 08:09:50 AM »
You cannot compare Katherine Parr with Catherine Howard surely?  Katherine Parr was a mature, highly intelligent widow who had already "been there" with her previous husbands. She was someone who would adhere to her marriage vows through sickness and health.

true, true, but catherine parr did very well as a wife for both her first two husbands that were both considerably older than her and that were, in many ways, simmilar to henry. i think she simply had it in her, while catherine howard didn't.

if you want, let's make a better comparison: with anne of cleves. just as innocent and inexperienced in the matter, somehow knew what she had to do and did it.
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
ilya


Offline imperial angel

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 11:27:48 AM »
I agree with Ysuelt about Catherine Howard's upbringing, and what that meant for her conduct. She was quite young when she married Henry, and it would have taken some experience of the Tudor court and hopefully some wisdom from growing older and more experienced to undo the effects of her upbringing. Hopefully, that would have done it, but one never knows. Catherine Howard had some potential, but she was basically a silly and ignorant girl who got caught up in events beyond her.

Offline Paul

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2006, 02:10:27 PM »
A question for you all. Cat Howard isn't my favourite wife, so I've not read much about her.

Somewhere, I read that Catherine Howard tried to get to Henry to beg for mercy. It was suspected that, if she had been able to talk to him, he might've spared her life. The story went: she slipped her guards when Henry was at a nearby chapel. The guards caught her just at the chapel doors and dragged her screaming back to her apartments.

Is this legend or fact?

Also: a question concerning her interogation. She was asked if she & Culpepper had ever promised marriage to eachother. She was asked if they ever addressed eachother as "husband" & "wife." Had Catherine been able to keep her witts and answer affirmative, she might've saved herself. Her marriage to Henry would've been invalid, due to pre-contract.

Again: legend or fact?

As mentioned above, I know very little about this wife. My two faves (dead even) are Anna of Cleves & Katharine Parr.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Catherine Howard
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2006, 02:12:23 PM »
Also: a question concerning her interogation. She was asked if she & Culpepper had ever promised marriage to eachother. She was asked if they ever addressed eachother as "husband" & "wife." Had Catherine been able to keep her witts and answer affirmative, she might've saved herself. Her marriage to Henry would've been invalid, due to pre-contract.

Again: legend or fact?


Hi Paul. I'm pretty sure this is true, as Fraser mentions it in her 'Six Wives', but I thought it was Francis Dereham that she was asked about - that is, if she was married to him, she couldn't possibly have committed adultery during her marriage to Henry, since said marriage didn't exist.
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