Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 421901 times)

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nerdycool

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2004, 05:18:48 PM »
Never fear Johnny, it's never too late to respond to a subject which was brought up weeks, or even months ago. It brings all those posts back up near the top so new people can learn what has been going on here. But yes, JM as well as numerous others on this site have mentioned that it would be up to the Russian people on whether there would be a monarchy again.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2004, 05:58:55 PM »
Quote
Oh, by the way, I just want everyone to know that Alexei Nikoloayevich did survive and had a son who eventually became my father. I have my left big toe as the proof. The ressemblance is striking. And don't give me that DNA crap either.  ;D
Sorry, but I had to get it off my chest.


Johnny,
Just to remind you that all those with claims of descent from the Imperial Family are to restrict those claims to the "Imperial Claimants Post Here" Topic thread.
Thanks
FA

Namarolf

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2004, 11:25:43 PM »
What happens if George Mikhailovich (Maria v.'s son) dies childless or decides to marry a commoner and give up his rights? According to their branch, who would be the next in line? the issue of Maria Kirilovna and Charles of Leiningen?

Johnny

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2004, 05:45:30 AM »
Dear Forum Admin
Sorry, that was a joke!

Offline Douglas

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2004, 08:56:44 PM »
1c) Karl Peter Ulrich, Duke of Holstein-Gottorp; succeeded as PETER III, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias 5 Jan 1762, until he was forced to abdicate by his wife 5 Jul 1762; b.Kiel 21 Feb 1728, murdered at Ropsha 17 Jul 1762; m.St.Petersburg 1 Sep 1745 Sophie Auguste Friederike Pss von Anhalt-Zerbst, who succeeded as CATHERINE II, Empress and Autocrat of all the Russias 9 Jul 1762 (Stettin 2 May 1729-St.Petersburg 17 Nov 1796)


Does  the above genelogy correctly state how the  descending  'Romanov' Tsars of Russia actually were biologically related to the House of Holstein-Gottorp?  

By using this fact we are following the male heirs that lead directly to Nicholas II.

Douglas

DanielB

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2004, 09:47:55 PM »
Hi Douglas,

The Romanovs were indeed biologically related to the Holstein-Gottorp…at least for a while! Since Peter III, the official name of the dynasty was “Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp” and the “Rodovoi gerb Ego Imperatorskogo Velichestva” (His Imperial Majesty’s Family Coat-of-Arms) did include the coat of arms from Slesvig-Holstein and other Foreign Lands (on the right side, left having the Romanov Family coat-of-arms). I remember reading somewhere that Empress Alexandra Feodorovna resented it and tried in vain to have the Almanach de Gotha to change the dynasty’s name for Romanov. (Hopefully someone will refresh my memory about the story…).

Why did I write “at least for a while!”: because when Grand Duke Paul Petrovich (future Paul I) the rumor at Catherine II’s Court was that he really was the son of one of Catherine II’s lover  :o ,  with whom young Paul apparently had an uncanny resemblance (Saltykov if I’m not mistaken) and that 9 months before hs birth, Peter III still hadn’t had sex with his wife. If true, the biological connection with the Romanov would have ceased with Peter III. I guess only DNA tests could tell. Why not dig Peter the Great's remains out of his tomb to compare with Nicholas II's DNA? I’m not sure the Russians would be amused though… :'(

Offline Douglas

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2004, 10:25:36 PM »
Hi Daniel:

Thank you so much for your very interesting reply.

I bring up this point only out of historical accuracy.  I mean no insult to the memory of Nicholas II, whom I admire.

Daniel: Please reread your post and make more clear your thought in paragraph two.  Is there a line or thought missing.    The grammer of the first sentence is not clear to me.

Gleb Bodkin, the son of  the  Nicholas II's doctor [ Dr. Bodkin] clearly writes in his book," The Real Romanovs", that, yes  indeed, all biological connection with the Romanov family ended with Peter III.

And it was at that point in historical time that the Imperial Family of Russia became the Holstein-Gottorp.

With all  sincere respect  for Nicholas II, the most recent Tsar of Russia and maybe not the last.

Douglas

rjt

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2004, 04:28:10 AM »
Can yall just imagine the stress "Grand Duchess" Maria must be feeling? Only one son, only one chance to redeem her grandfather's claim. I hate to be rude, but by god, I hope that little Georgie marries a commoner! At least then *everyone* would be on a level playing field! Or, who knows, he may be gay. Plenty of Romanovs were, apparently.

Sorry, I just waded most of this thread and felt myself becoming more amused and uptight at the same time--and kinda thought maybe that's the way Maria is feeling.

Regarding the succession, my personal feeling is that Michael Alexandrovich's desire to have an election should be considered the proper course of action.

Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2004, 08:24:19 AM »
Hi there, just to answer an earlier post;  

Peter III (Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp) inherited the Russian throne after the death of Empress Elizabeth I.  Elizabeth was the daughter of Peter the Great, and had no issue.  As a result, the throne passed to the closest relative: Peter of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp, son of Grand Duchess Anna, the sister of Peter the Great.

After the Schleswig-Holstein succession, the family was known as Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. That is how the Almanach de Gotha referred to them until Alexander III complained, and they switched it to "House of Romanov" (Romanov-Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp) in contradiction of their very strict rules.

Best,  Nick

Charles

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2004, 08:37:31 AM »
Slight correction, Grand Duchess Anna was Peter the Great's daughter not his sister.  Peter III was Elizaveta Petrovna's nephew.

DanielB

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2004, 11:08:35 PM »
Sorry Douglas,

My second paragraph should have read as follows:

“Why did I write “at least for a while!”: because when Grand Duke Paul Petrovich (future Paul I) was born the rumor at Catherine II’s Court was that he really was the son of one of Catherine II’s lover, with whom young Paul apparently had an uncanny resemblance (Saltykov if I’m not mistaken) and that 9 months before hs birth, Peter III still hadn’t had sex with his wife. If true, the biological connection with the Romanov would have ceased with Peter III. I guess only DNA tests could tell. Why not dig Peter the Great out of his tomb to compare with the one from Nicholas II? I’m not sure the Russians would be amused though…”

And I should have written “Elizabeth Petrovna’s Court” not Catherine II’s, as she wasn’t yet empress when she had a son…

I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone either. But rumors and gossip are also part of History – especially when they end up in Diplomatic reports as it was the case in Peter & Catherine’s time. I could add that some historians wrote that, because Grand Duke Peter was apparently unable to have children,  Empress Elizabeth herself might have let it known to Catherine that an Heir was needed at all cost, including the one of taking a lover to father a child. What really happened, we’ll never know. But around the same time Peter was persuaded to have a minor operation so he could at last have sex with his wife (and Saltykov was sent far away from the Capital). Of course there are some who say this operation was hastily arranged after Catherine discovered she was pregnant from someone else…

But does it really matter? And even if Paul Ist was really the son of Peter III (he sure showed the same mental imbalance as Peter did) and then was a “biological” Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov, it didn’t make his successors less Russian for having a German family name. Alexander III and Nicholas II certainly viewed themselves and acted as true Russians, even if they had some Foreign blood (mostly German). The present British dynasty’s name was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha until George V changed its name to "Windsor" during World War I because the name sounded too much German. Today no one would think of him as being German, even less of his grand-daughter Elizabeth II. So, what’s in a name really? Not much, except that for dynasties, it sometimes explain their history, well…at least their official one.

A note about the present Romanovs: some say that, in accordance to genealogical rules, if Maria Vladimirovna’s son George ever becomes Emperor of Russia the name of the dynasty should be Hohenzollern-Romanov…Will history repeats itself?


DanielB

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2004, 11:12:39 PM »
Nick:

I really hate to disagree with you, but I've just checked the copies of the “Almanach de Gotha” I have: right until 1916 (I don’t think there was one published for 1917), the name they give for the Russian dynasty is “Maison Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp”. So I guess Alexander III might have complained about it, but apparently to no avail. I will try to find where I’ve read Alexandra Feodorovna tried to have the name changed too.

Best regards,

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2004, 07:28:28 PM »
Patrilineally, which is how things are done in Europe, the House is Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp through GD Maria Vladimirovna, if you recognize her, or Prince Nicholas Romanovich, if you recognize him. All this regardless of who the biological father of Paul I was, because legally, his father was Peter III. The later never repudiated paternity of Paul.

If you recognize the Vladimirovichi claim, the House will become Romanov-Hohenzollern with the death of Maria, regardless of who George marries, or if he marries at all, and regardless of Maria's ex "becoming" a Romanov upon his marriage.

Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2004, 07:33:17 PM »
Actually, Lisa, if things are done patrilinially, the House is Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov (Peter III being a Holstein-Gottorp with a Romanov mother), and after the death of Maria, it would be Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen-Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov.

Alexander III made a big stink with the Gotha because they refused to put "Romanov" first-- Daniel, that is why "Romanov" come first.  It is the only House where this happens.


Best,

Nick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Nick_Nicholson »

Annie

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2004, 08:31:46 PM »
Why is it that the sons of Sandro and Xenia are not considered in the succession? They were after all double Romanov! According to British succession, they would have it. Xenia was the oldest daughter, and would have been in line after the loss of all her brothers and their children. Therefore, Xenia's oldest son, with Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich for a father, looks like a good successor to me! Does he have any living issue?

What about Paul Illynsky, son of Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, and Mayor of Palm Beach, Florida? He is a male decendant of a Grand Duke, he has a good claim! The Tsar of Palm Beach!

If they are going by the old Pauline law, the current claimant is not valid since there was a female in between! I thought the succession could not come through a female?  Besides, wasn't Kyril's wife a divorcee of Alexandra's brother, Ernie? Wouldn't that disqualify that line too?