Who is the rightful heir?

[Belochka]

Annie, Paul Illinsky died earlier this year (there is an article presented on the home page of this Discussion Board).

The Laws of Succession were severed (chain of custody) by Michael II, after he renounced the Crown, which Nikolai II passed directly to him in March 1917, following his duel abdication. The Provisional Government and then the Soviet Government intervened, now followed by the present democratic form of Government. Consequentially, the Imperial Laws of Succession do not have any validity under the present Constitution of the Russian Republic.

IMHO there is no rightful heir today.

If there ever becomes a real occassion that the people of the Russian Republic wish to have a new Imperial head of government, it is for them to decide via a referendum. Referenda are necessary to implement where a change in the regime is required, and provides a direct vote for the people on this issue.

If the majority of the population endorses the formation of a new autocratic regime, then the new laws would have to be enacted first to establish the new Crown, concurrently with the new Laws of Succession . The  Romanov families must first formally and conclusively decide as to who is the more rightful person to accept the newly established Crown. Ideally, the new laws would have to specifically clarify the more sticky circumstances which presented difficulties in the Imperial past i.e. divorces and marriage to members outside the immediate monarchal families.

[Annie]

Oh, I didn't know that. I'm very sorry to hear about Paul Illinsky.  

I don't think Russia will ever bring back the monarchy, as interesting as that would be. But I have always doubted Kyril's claim. If there are no rules now, then we have a lot of  possibilities!

[olga]

Why is it that the sons of Sandro and Xenia are not considered in the succession? They were after all double Romanov! According to British succession, they would have it. Xenia was the oldest daughter, and would have been in line after the loss of all her brothers and their children. Therefore, Xenia's oldest son, with Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich for a father, looks like a good successor to me! Does he have any living issue?

The descendants of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich and Grand Duchess Kseniya Alexandrovna

Irina Alexandrovna, Princess Romanova 1895-1970
 -Irina Felixovna, Princess Yusupova 1915-
    -Countess Kseniya Nikolaevna Sheremetieva 1942-

Andrei Alexandrovich, Prince Romanov 1897-1981
 -Kseniya Andreevna, Princess Romanova 1919-
 -Mihail Andreevich, Prince Romanov 1920-
 -Andrei Andreevich, Prince Romanov 1923-
   -Olga Andreevna, Princess Romanova 1950-
      -Nicolas Matthew 1976-
      -Francis-Alexander Matthew 1978-
      -Alexandra Matthew 1981-
      -Thomas Matthew 1987-1989
   -Alexei Andreevich, Prince Romanov 1953-
   -Peter Andreevich, Prince Romanov 1961-
   -Andrei Andreevich, Prince Romanov 1963-
      -Natasha Kathleen, Princess Romanova, 1993-

Fyodor Alexandrovich, Prince Romanov 1898-1968
 -Irina Fyodorovna, Princess Romanova 1923-
 -Mihail Fyodorovich, Prince Romanov 1924-
    -Mikhail Paul Mikhailovich, Prince Romanov 1959-2001
       -Tatiana Mikhailovna Romanova 1986-

Nikita Alexandrovich, Prince Romanov 1900- 1974
 -Nikita Nikitich, Prince Romanov 1923
    -Theodore Nikitich, Prince Romanov 1974-
 -Alexander Nikitich Prince Romanov 1929-

Dmitri Alexandrovich, Prince Romanov 1901-1980
 -Nadezhda Dmitrievna, Princess Romanova 1933-
    -Penelope Allen 1953-
    -Marina Allen 1955 -
    -Alexandra Allen 1958-  

Rostislav Alexandrovich, Prince Romanov 1902-1978
 -Rostislav Rostislavovich, Prince Romanov 1938-1999
    -Stephena Alexandra Rostislavovna, Princess Romanova 1963-
    -Alexandra Rostislavovna, Princess Romanova 1983
    -Rostislav Rostislavovich, Prince Romanov 1985
    -Nikita Rostislavovich, Prince Romanov 1987-
 -Nikolai Rostislavovich, Prince Romanov 1945-
    -Nicholas Christopher, Prince Romanov 1968-
       -Cory Christopher, Prince Romanov 1993-
    -Daniel-Joseph, Prince Romanov 1972-
    -Heather Noel, Princess Romanova 1976-
 
Vasili Alexandrovich, Prince Romanov 1907-1989
 -Marina Vasilievna, Princess Romanova 1940-
    -Tatiana Beadleston 1968
    -Alexandra Beadleston 1970
    -Nicholas Beadleston 1971
    -Nathalie Beadleston 1976

[Annie]

Thank you Olga! I was sure with all those kids there must be a lot of offspring around! It's so good to see the list! Those are a lot of Romanovs! It's a good thing Xenia's family was able to escape on the HMS Marlborough!

[Belochka]

I don't think Russia will ever bring back the monarchy, as interesting as that would be. But I have always doubted Kyril's claim. If there are no rules now, then we have a lot of  possibilities!

I agree with you Annie, the more years which will pass as Russians learn to enjoy a Constitutional Democracy, the less likeky it becomes that a return to some form of autocratic rule will be formally be requested by the people.

Kyril could certainly make his Decree, because there was nothing to preclude his statement. One problem was that not all the Russian community in exile around the world accepted this declaration (including the Dowger Empress Maria Fyodorovna). He was neither elected or selected by the all remaining Romanovs. By extending his claim to include his daughter was a more fanciful move which IMHO bears no validity.

While the Laws of Succession remain silent today, there is no reason why that they could not brought back to life in a modified form. Only when all the specified criteria can be met, can the rightful person be in the position to accept their new role.

If young George wishes to pursue his claim then he must meet all the strict criteria imposed by the New Laws of Succession, and secondly he must be elected and accepted by all the Romanov family branches, and not by just his own family. There must be complete consensus. The other difficulty presented is that Russian nation must also formally recognize the new State by a majority vote.  

George's expectations have absolutely no validity at law simply because his mother's Declaration of 1992 could not legally accept the Imperial Laws of Succession as her own. These laws were not only defunct, but the Declaration itself cannot assume laws from another country to be used for her own needs, and especially from a country which no longer exists.

Another important consideration is that assuming that the Imperial Laws of Succession did stand, Maria would never meet the criteria, the first obvious point being that she is a female.

On balance her claim is completely meaningless.
 

[Forum Admin]

It should also be remembered that evidence exists in at least two reliable first hand sources that GD Boris V. went to Minister of Justice Tchcheglovitov with the question of succession rights for the Vladimirs because Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox when they were born.  The definitive answer was researched and written up as a report, with a copy going to Nicholas II as well as the Vladimirs that the Vladimirs were excluded from right to succession to the throne as the laws required anyone who succeeds to be born to an orthodox mother. Her 1905 conversion to Orthodoxy had no effect on their succession.
SO, Kyril's "claim" was invalid anyway, even under the old laws.

[olga]

Like Annie, I prefer the descendants of Alexander Mikhailovich and Kseniya Alexandrovna. The Vladimirovichi always seemed power hungry to me.

[Annie]

Thanks Olga and Belochka!  

In addition to being not all that qualified, and power hungry, I find the Kyril/Vladimir line not at all likeable or endearing, or even very regal. They seem more like a tabloid story than heirs to a great dynasty. Sorry, that's just how I feel about it.

[Belochka]

Thanks Olga and Belochka!  

In addition to being not all that qualified, and power hungry, I find the Kyril/Vladimir line not at all likeable or endearing, or even very regal. They seem more like a tabloid story than heirs to a great dynasty. Sorry, that's just how I feel about it.

Annie, well said. These pretenders will do and say anything to justify themselves to those who are willing to accept them, who themselves do not understand the real legal situation. George's mother manipulated the media to create the impression that the Crown belonged to her.  

All their petty excuses in not extending the courtesy of attending the funeral service at the P. P. Fortress in 1998, alongside all the Romanov Family said a great deal don't you think? Their absence at this onetime event warrants attention.

It is a shame that there are some authors today who seem to believe this myth and perpetuate it in their writings.

[Robert_Hall]

In the highly unlikely event of a monarchial restoration, autocratic or constitutional, there is absolutely no requirement that any candidate even be Romanov.
Presumably the Senate [or Duma] would select from any number of families [Putin even] with the participation of the Church. Then an election by the citizens.  This rather cumbersome process would take so long, no one would remember what the fuss was all about anyway !
After all, it is not 1613 all over again is it?
Cheers,
Robert

[Belochka]

Robert_Hall, I agree with you completely.

If the Russian Federation wants to revert to a Constitutional autocracy or even an absolute autocracy or shades inbetween, the Crown will be vacant.

There is no fundamental reason why Putin could not start a new dynasty.

[olga]

Has anybody thought about the Yurievskys? I know the marriage was morganatic and everything, but they are more closely related to a Tsar than Maria Vladimirovna and co.

Georgi Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1872-1913
  -Alexander Georgievich, Prince Yurievsky 1900-1988
         -Georgi Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1961-

Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1874-1925
   -Alexander Adolf Nikolaus, Count von Merenberg 1896-1897  
   -Georg Michael Alexander, Count von Merenberg 1897-1965
           -Clothilde Elisabeth, Countess von Merenberg 1945-
                  - Alexander von Rintelin 1966-
                  -Georg Nikolaus von Rintelin 1970-
                  -Gregor von Rintelin 1972-  
  -Olga Katharina Anne, Countess von Merenberg 1898-1983
          -Alexander Mihailovich, Count Loris-Melikov 1926-

Boris Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1876-1876

Ekaterina Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1878-1959
  -Andrei Alexandrovich, Prince Baryatinsky 1902-1931
          -Hélène Andrée Jeanne, Princess Baryatinskaya 1927-1988
  -Alexander Alexandrovich, Prince Baryatinsky 1905-1992



Georgi Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1872-1913
  -Alexander Georgievich, Prince Yurievsky 1900-1988
        -Georgi Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1961-

Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1874-1925
  -Alexander Adolf Nikolaus, Count von Merenberg 1896-1897  
  -Georg Michael Alexander, Count von Merenberg 1897-1965
         -Clothilde Elisabeth, Countess von Merenberg 1945-
                  - Alexander von Rintelin 1966-
                  -Georg Nikolaus von Rintelin 1970-
                  -Gregor von Rintelin 1972-  
  -Olga Katharina Anne, Countess von Merenberg 1898-1983
          -Alexander Mihailovich, Count Loris-Melikov 1926-

Boris Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1876-1876

Ekaterina Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1878-1959
  -Andrei Alexandrovich, Prince Baryatinsky 1902-1931
          -Hélène Andrée Jeanne, Princess Baryatinskaya 1927-1988
  -Alexander Alexandrovich, Prince Baryatinsky 1905-1992

[CuriousOne]

I have too many books and can't find  what Cath. the great wrote about Paul I's natural father being Saltykov in one of her diaries.  Then the author went on to say this probably isn't true, however, because she had taken the throne and needed the backing of the Russians, she needed a son with Russian blood, and Saltykov was Russian.  I don't recall all the possible men listed as the possible father of Paul I.  I think they were all Russian but one.  I don't recall the name but he was listed as one of  Elisabeth II's  "gentlemen of the the bedchamber"....  Bedchamber?  Gosh, is that right?  It was this fellow, who was Prussian, who was Paul I's natural father.  After the deed was done,  the Prussian was sent away and with the help of Frederick "the Great" was placed in prision and held there for a long long time....  It was one of those books that talked about all of the lovers of Cath. the great.  

Probably just a rumor....

CuriousOne

[LisaDavidson]

Clarifications:

a) Catherine herself states that Peter was not Paul's father.
b) She had reasons to state this even if Peter did father Paul - it goes to the murder of the parent of your children.
c) It has never been proven who Paul's father was, so making statements such as the natural father being sent away are ridiculous.
d) Peter was Paul's legal father irrespective of all this speculation because Peter did not repudiate paternity of his wife's children - making Paul and all his progeny descendants of Peter, period, under Russian law.
e) The Yurievskys are ineligible for the succession because their parents were not married when they were born - their morganatic status is secondary to this reason.
f) The surviving male Yurievsky had the identical relationship to Alexander II as did the late Prince Paul Ilyinsky - both were/are his great grandsons. So, if you are going for close male line relationships, the Ilyinskys have the superior claim.

[Greg_King]

It should also be remembered that evidence exists in at least two reliable first hand sources that GD Boris V. went to Minister of Justice Tchcheglovitov with the question of succession rights for the Vladimirs because Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox when they were born.  The definitive answer was researched and written up as a report, with a copy going to Nicholas II as well as the Vladimirs that the Vladimirs were excluded from right to succession to the throne as the laws required anyone who succeeds to be born to an orthodox mother. Her 1905 conversion to Orthodoxy had no effect on their succession.
SO, Kyril's "claim" was invalid anyway, even under the old laws.

I have to interject here.  I wouldn't take the word of Purishkevich to mean much (especially his questionable "diary" which wasn't even written along those lines nor contemporaneously it seems with what he recorded), and Spiridovich-well, I question how much knowledge he had versus what he was told-and we all know gossip thrived at Court.

A more important point, though, concerns the issue of conversion and the idea that one not born of an Orthodox mother had no succession rights.  Conversion was required at the discretion of the reigning Emperor-covering those members not in direct line (for example, the heir).  The wives of Vladimir and Serge Alexandrovich were thus not required to convert.  And the idea that one had to have an Orthodox mother to be in line to the throne is clearly wrong-witness Tatiana Konstantinovna's 1911 renunciation of her succession rights on her marriage (there's another issue attached but I won't bore everyone here).  Tatiana's mother, Grand Duchess Elizabeth Mavrikievna, remained Lutheran after her marriage and did not convert, yet her children HAD succession rights, and Tatiana had to renounce that right.  Were having an Orthodox mother a requirement TK would not have had to renounce.

Greg King