Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 400314 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline umigon

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
    • My Family Tree
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #315 on: July 09, 2007, 07:14:12 AM »
I'm not sure if Vladimir's marriage to Leonida was as "blatantly" morganatic as some state. I know not all the Courts and Royal and Imperial Houses had the same rules whenever it came to deciding whether a marriage was morganatic in Spain or not. But Spanish infanta María de las Mercedes (1911-1953) married Irakly Bagration, Leonida's brother, and the marriage was considered equal.
Gonzalo Velasco Berenguer

My Family Tree: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=umigon

Royal Families: www.tribalpages.com/tribes?userid=gondan

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #316 on: July 12, 2007, 01:20:36 AM »
I'm not sure if Vladimir's marriage to Leonida was as "blatantly" morganatic as some state. I know not all the Courts and Royal and Imperial Houses had the same rules whenever it came to deciding whether a marriage was morganatic in Spain or not. But Spanish infanta María de las Mercedes (1911-1953) married Irakly Bagration, Leonida's brother, and the marriage was considered equal.

As pertains to the Romanovs, the ruling of the head of the house (albiet on the subject of his own marriage!) is the only opinion that matters, if one considers the Fundamental Law still valid.

I, for one, do not. The FL was part of the "package" of being a royal in the Imperial House. One was expected to promote the arts, pursue a military career, help the tsar, and marry a member of a ruling house. In exchange for meeting these expectations, the royal received a handsome income, properties, and the prestige associated with being a Romanov dynast.

Since the rest of the "package" is pretty much unavailable, I fail to see why current descendants should be so proscribed in who they should marry today. Almost all must earn their own living, there being no appenage payments any more.

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #317 on: August 10, 2007, 12:56:06 PM »
I find this whole debate about the succession laws to be no more than a mind puzzle useful only for entertainment, with no applicability to the real world.

I took the following quote from the "official" website of Maria Vladimirovna:

"Emperor Paul I, the Son of Peter III, issued the Decree on Succession on 5 April 1797, which determined the order of succession to the Throne as well as membership of the Russian IMPERIAL House. This Decree was amended on 29 March 1820 by Emperor Alexander I who issued a Manifesto, stipulating, “if any person in the Imperial Family enters into a marriage with a person of a status unequal to His, that is, not belonging to any Royal or Ruling House, in such a case the person in the Imperial Family cannot pass on to the other person the rights which belong to Members of the Imperial Family, and the children issuing from such a marriage have no right of succession to the Throne.

"Russian dynastic law, which was based upon the Decree on Succession, belongs to what is known as the Austrian system of succession, which is based on male primogeniture. In Russia, succession passed through the female line only after the extinction of all male branches. Similar to the succession laws governing other monarchies, the articles pertaining to the succession to the Throne (Articles 25-39 of the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire) are inviolable, that is, not susceptible to abolition or modification even by the Sovereign Emperor."  [my emphasis]

So, while stressing that the succession law could not be amended even by a tsar, she points out that Alexander I amended it.

All this hollow fury around the succession laws is no more than playing at dress-up and dollhouses.  It has about as much real application to figuring out how to run a country in the mess Russia is in as a tea party in a doll house has to raising and educating a family.

Lisa is right.  The world in which any of this made even a modicum of sense is long and irretrievably gone.

The succesion law that now matters is the one Putin will write.

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #318 on: August 10, 2007, 08:43:15 PM »
Yes I cannot imagine the Romanovs ever coming back into power unless somebody like Putin was responsible. He will no doubt choose his own successor. He is all powerful. 

Offline Kurt Steiner

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 273
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #319 on: August 11, 2007, 05:01:54 AM »
Yes I cannot imagine the Romanovs ever coming back into power unless somebody like Putin was responsible. He will no doubt choose his own successor. He is all powerful. 

Something similar took place in Spain. Franco did choose who was going to replace him. He took away Juan de Barcelona out of the way and put his son Juan Carlos in his place. "Take this or nothing", so to speak, in a quite broad way.

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #320 on: August 11, 2007, 06:27:44 AM »
Yes I cannot imagine the Romanovs ever coming back into power unless somebody like Putin was responsible. He will no doubt choose his own successor. He is all powerful. 

Something similar took place in Spain. Franco did choose who was going to replace him. He took away Juan de Barcelona out of the way and put his son Juan Carlos in his place. "Take this or nothing", so to speak, in a quite broad way.

Well Franco made the right choice for spain as Juan Carlos is an excellent monarch.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #321 on: August 11, 2007, 08:31:53 AM »
I agree with you that Nicholas II has a grandson, but he cannot be the next Tsar because his mother was not royal. I agree with you that Alexsei survived the Revolution, grew up and got married. But the lady he married was not royal, so their children would find it difficult to claim the throne.

But if their eldest son married a lady of Royal status, of equal status, then their son has the greatest claim to the throne of Russia and should "in theory" be the next Tsar.

When Aleksei died he was "in theory" the Tsar. But you know how it is,  - The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar -

The new Tsar is Aleksei 's grandson, "in theory".

Proof once again that no topic relating to dynastic matters can be discussed seriously on this forum without some hare-brained survival theory cropping up . . . .  Oh, well.  Play tea parties in dusty little dollhouses.

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #322 on: August 11, 2007, 08:51:19 AM »
I agree with you that Nicholas II has a grandson, but he cannot be the next Tsar because his mother was not royal. I agree with you that Alexsei survived the Revolution, grew up and got married. But the lady he married was not royal, so their children would find it difficult to claim the throne.

But if their eldest son married a lady of Royal status, of equal status, then their son has the greatest claim to the throne of Russia and should "in theory" be the next Tsar.

When Aleksei died he was "in theory" the Tsar. But you know how it is,  - The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar -

The new Tsar is Aleksei 's grandson, "in theory".




Proof once again that no topic relating to dynastic matters can be discussed seriously on this forum without some hare-brained survival theory cropping up . . . .  Oh, well.  Play tea parties in dusty little dollhouses.


Tsarfan,

Quite true, but  you must admit it does provide a degree of comic releif!  ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #323 on: August 11, 2007, 10:21:57 AM »
Yes how blatantly absurd the poster must have been about a grandchild of Nicholas II and Alexandra Feodorovna. It is hard to have a grandchild when all the children are murdered before they have had any children themselves.  As for an heir it is all academic as it is highly doubtful that there will ever be a restoration of the monarchy in Russia. 

Offline Kurt Steiner

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 273
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #324 on: August 12, 2007, 02:50:40 AM »
Yes how blatantly absurd the poster must have been about a grandchild of Nicholas II and Alexandra Feodorovna. It is hard to have a grandchild when all the children are murdered before they have had any children themselves.

I fully and absolutely agree with you here, Dmitri.

As for an heir it is all academic as it is highly doubtful that there will ever be a restoration of the monarchy in Russia. 

But it's so funny to go all over the issue over and over... ;D

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #325 on: August 12, 2007, 10:45:13 PM »
As amusing as some posters may find it (and anything on which Kurt Steiner and dmitri agree is worthy of note). "ex Princess Lisa" is hereby admonished to not post survivor claims on this thread. There are places on the Forum where this may be discussed - but the Russian History section is not one of them,

Offline Kurt Steiner

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 273
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #326 on: August 18, 2007, 12:21:29 PM »
(and anything on which Kurt Steiner and dmitri agree is worthy of note).

Indeed. I see it... (if you allow me a little joke).

Kurt Steiner (walking while surrounded by a deep fog) and Dmitri walking side by side

Kurt Steiner: Dmitri, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Excuse me for this silly moment of madness, I couldn't resist.

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #327 on: August 21, 2007, 06:50:38 PM »
Levity, any levity is most welcome. At least with me it is. Too many of us (myself included) get our panties in a bunch over trivial matters.

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #328 on: August 21, 2007, 07:48:29 PM »
Levity, any levity is most welcome. At least with me it is. Too many of us (myself included) get our panties in a bunch over trivial matters.

Mine are just fine!

Margarita


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #329 on: October 20, 2007, 07:52:00 AM »
An aquaintance of mine is frineds with Prince  Michael Andrievich who live in Sydney.Aside from what I have heard from him about the Prince,and that is all complimentary, I cannot find anything else on him apart that he is Xenia's grandson.Can some one please share some info or point me in the right direction?
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17