Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 398236 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #345 on: April 19, 2008, 04:08:37 PM »
Greetings,

l reply to this Anglo Saxon/ Celt view f things Russian, l enclose a  pdf file of a full report of the recent tour of HIH GD Maria of Russia, please note the title refered to HIH in letters and on the memorial stone, l dont think the Russian Community wastes money on putting inncorrect names on expensive things. The Governments of Russia came by intially from a war insurrection not by voting, the interim Govrnment was not voted out as you know.

Have a good look at what is in this file has in its conent and see if  a lot of Russian think its all gone, your out of step with a lot of us actually, l feel sorry for millions of Russian whom perished in Gulags under Stalin really called Cobar , what about the men pushed to the front with out even a weapon in their hand by political commissars to straight death, this includes my relatives, its easy to say things on a forum , its a lot harder in real life.

http://russianwelfare.org.au/pdf/imperial.pdf,     in this pdf file you see the Russian Ambassador and first Secretary accepting the Order of St Anna 2nd and third class respectively, what do you say about that, also another Order of the Grand Duchess is accepted in the Military as well in Russia.

http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf


www.russianimperial.com.au

www.imperialhouse.ru

   www.riuo.org
   
   http://private.peterlink.ru/asorokin

   www.russianball.com.au
www.nobility.ru




I think you are mistaken to characterize the opinions here as Anglo Saxon Celt. We have posters here from throughout the world, including many Russians and expatriate Russians. The fact of the matter is that many Russians are of the opinion that the monarchy is finished. I would even go so far as to say that the majority of Russians feel this way.

And, as this is a Forum, non Russians have as much a right as anyone to express their views.

Finally, kindly do not assume that your family was the only one to suffer under Stalin, or indeed to suffer at all in the 20th century. On the contrary, many of us have experienced this in our families. Unfortunately, cruelty to others is far too common in our world.

Offline imperialruss

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #346 on: April 20, 2008, 01:35:47 AM »

Now Lisa,

Dont get  over strung on it, l clearly didnt say that any other opinions were not valid, so you have taken it to heart to much, l didnt say any one else had not suffered either, can you tell me where l said that ?, there is a shift and a slow shift, but it requires education and it to appear in academic books, which has been slow to manifest, if several generations were not made aware via history classes other than vague references to an alternative government the the possibility of other forms eg consitutional monarchy will be slow to gell in peoples minds,

The Socialists say you didnt have socialism in Russia after Trotski --- l cannot remember  his real name as in Stalin all used false names , got booted, their  point is that it got hi jacked to what they call State Capitalism or terror, odious figures like Beria,  wrote  false books used in their education system about Cobar [Stalin]  with invented tripe, lets say if you put the free thinkers, intellectuals in prison-- never to return your social history gets corrupted , we all know they eventually got Trotski in Mexico, so it takes time, what we can say all the OLD SYMBOLISM is there, the Imperial eagle is every where on the police military and other organisations, have you seen the uniforms of the Kremlin Guards, their dress uniforms are so Imperial it couldnt be any more obvious, remember the  Provisional Government of Kerensky had dumped the crown above the eagle  altogether , now its back with avengence , so what could this all lead yo in the future who knows ?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 01:39:05 AM by imperialruss »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #347 on: April 24, 2008, 06:03:50 PM »

Now Lisa,

Dont get  over strung on it, l clearly didnt say that any other opinions were not valid, so you have taken it to heart to much, l didnt say any one else had not suffered either, can you tell me where l said that ?, there is a shift and a slow shift, but it requires education and it to appear in academic books, which has been slow to manifest, if several generations were not made aware via history classes other than vague references to an alternative government the the possibility of other forms eg consitutional monarchy will be slow to gell in peoples minds,

The Socialists say you didnt have socialism in Russia after Trotski --- l cannot remember  his real name as in Stalin all used false names , got booted, their  point is that it got hi jacked to what they call State Capitalism or terror, odious figures like Beria,  wrote  false books used in their education system about Cobar [Stalin]  with invented tripe, lets say if you put the free thinkers, intellectuals in prison-- never to return your social history gets corrupted , we all know they eventually got Trotski in Mexico, so it takes time, what we can say all the OLD SYMBOLISM is there, the Imperial eagle is every where on the police military and other organisations, have you seen the uniforms of the Kremlin Guards, their dress uniforms are so Imperial it couldnt be any more obvious, remember the  Provisional Government of Kerensky had dumped the crown above the eagle  altogether , now its back with avengence , so what could this all lead yo in the future who knows ?

I am not strung on this. We just have a difference of opinion. Trotsky's real name was Lev Davidovich Bronstein. Of course monarchy could come back to Russia, it is just my opinion that it's unlikely.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #348 on: April 24, 2008, 06:50:52 PM »
They are, more correctly, the Ceremonial  Presidential Guards. The uniforms are modeled after those during Alexander I reign.

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Offline imperialruss

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #349 on: April 25, 2008, 08:27:40 PM »
 Well what can l say, don't the look grand, who wouldn't want them standing outside your front door, this is a vast improvement on those  soviet  ridiculous hats they used to wear , the ones with the pointed peaks , like a one horn on top , what were they called budonaka l think, any way the Soldiers look grand , do you have more photo"s ?.


I am looking for more information on Kerensky in particular his Australian wife and his life in Australia, can any one help ?

Thanks

Stepan
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:30:46 PM by imperialruss »

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #350 on: May 04, 2008, 07:50:30 PM »
Hullo,
I would just like to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
As far as I can ascertain, the closest living relative of the Tsar is Prince Michael of Russia. He is the 88 year old grandson of Grand Duchess Xenia.
I am not entering in to the debate regarding house rules, just who is the most senior Romanov, and as he is the most senior living descendant, I would say that he is the closest to the throne..
Anyone know that he grew up in Windsor castle and played with the then Princess' Elizabeth and Margaret as kids?
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #351 on: May 05, 2008, 01:32:42 AM »
Hullo,
I would just like to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
As far as I can ascertain, the closest living relative of the Tsar is Prince Michael of Russia. He is the 88 year old grandson of Grand Duchess Xenia.
I am not entering in to the debate regarding house rules, just who is the most senior Romanov, and as he is the most senior living descendant, I would say that he is the closest to the throne..
Anyone know that he grew up in Windsor castle and played with the then Princess' Elizabeth and Margaret as kids?


The situatiion with the Windsor cousins wasn't nearly so cozy. Prince Andrew told me he saw Elizabeth on occasion while out playing and she apparently would tell her parents - and he would then be told to stay away from wherever he had encountered her. Not exactly a friendly place for a poor Russian cousin. As far as I know, he did not tend to encounter Margaret, nor do I know if Michael encountered either of them. They did not grow up at Windsor Castle, by the way. Their grandmother had grace and favor homes but never lived in WC.

As to being heir, I don't know anyone who considers Michael Andreivich to be the senior Romanov. If you consider descendants using male primogeniture, then the heir is Prince Dmitri Pavlovich Ilyinsky, one of a handful of great-great-great grandsons of Alexander II. As the family itself reckons it, Prince Nicholas Romanovich is considered the senior male heir. 

Because of the scarcity of male Romanov heirs, the senior male according to the majority of the descendants will eventually be from the Xenia/Sandro line. The Romanovich line will become extinct within this generation.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #352 on: May 05, 2008, 06:35:41 AM »
"Because of the scarcity of male Romanov heirs, the senior male according to the majority of the descendants will eventually be from the Xenia/Sandro line. The Romanovich line will become extinct within this generation."

Seeing then that Prince Michael is the eldest son and his sister renounced her right to the throne before  marrying Felix, (i believe), if there were no house rules about male primogeniture and morgonomatic marriages, he would then be "heir". And as for the Andreevich line, I gather his brothers have sons and grandsons?
I believe that they had grace and favour homes at Windsor and then moved to Hampton Court.
:)
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #353 on: May 05, 2008, 01:51:29 PM »
"Because of the scarcity of male Romanov heirs, the senior male according to the majority of the descendants will eventually be from the Xenia/Sandro line. The Romanovich line will become extinct within this generation."

Seeing then that Prince Michael is the eldest son and his sister renounced her right to the throne before  marrying Felix, (i believe), if there were no house rules about male primogeniture and morgonomatic marriages, he would then be "heir". And as for the Andreevich line, I gather his brothers have sons and grandsons?
I believe that they had grace and favour homes at Windsor and then moved to Hampton Court.
:)

John, I think you have your generations mixed up and you also are not clear about how you are reckoning the whole "heir" business.

Irina Alexandrovna was Xenia's only daughter and she married Prince Felix Yussoupov. Her brothers were Andrei, Feodor, Nikita, Dmitri, Rostislav, and Vasilli. Her oldest brother, Andrei, had two sons, Michael and Andrei (Andrew). Prince Michael Andreivich is who you are referring to, and he is not the senior male in line. This has been explained to you, but I will try again.

"If there were no house rules about male primogeniture and morganatic marriages, he would then be heir". And, how do you reckon that? Every European ruling house (up until recently) has followed some form of male primogeniture. Absent that, they have to have a defined system which clearly identifies the heir. You haven't explained how you have determined that MA is the heir and why those who are identified as heirs are excluded by you.

The last tsar, Nicholas, had no surviving male issue. His predecessor, Alexander III, had only one grandson in the male line, Count George Brasov to survive the Revolution. Even if he was not excluded by being a morganatic  heir, he died without issue. Upon his death, the direct male line from Alexander III became extinct. Alexander III's predecessor, Alexander II, had sons Nicholas (Nixa, who died without issue) Alexander III (male line extinct after death of George Brasov), Vladimir, Alexei, Serge (who died without issue), and Paul. Of the four younger surviving sons: Alexei's only son was murdered by Stalin  and Serge had no issue. Vladimir had three sons, but of these, they had a total of two sons: Andrei's son Vova died with no issue, and Kiril's son Vladimir had no male issue. That leaves Grand Duke Paul, who fathered 2 sons. Of these, Prince Vladimir Paley was murdered by Lenin, and Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich survived and had one son, Paul.

Paul's two sons, Dmitri and Michael, are all that is left of the legitimate male line of Alexander II, and they take precedence over the one surviving male in Alexander II's morganatic line and the 11 remaining male line survivors who are in the line of Nicholas I.

So, if you study the geneology of the Romanovs in the male line, you will quickly see that the future (if there is one) of this line lies with the great grand children of Irina's brother, Rostislav. Of the 13 male line descendants alive at this moment, not one has a son. Of these, 9 seem to have had their children and no boy children have survived. The remaining 4 are all in the line of Prince Rostislav.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #354 on: May 05, 2008, 04:58:13 PM »
Thanks Lisa,
I wasn't presuming he was the heir, I was just asking!

He would appear to me to be the closest male relative to the last surviving Tsar and I am working on the theory that all House Rules on Morganomatic Marriages and primogeniture became void and extint at the time of the revolution.
Irrespective, MA has no issue and is 88.
The family does appreciate his closeness to Nicholas, as he has been Vice Chairman of the RF Association for quite some time, but I am led to believe that due to age and no children they have all agreed that his "claim", is not the one the family would ever pursue.
Anyway, thanks for the info, and it's Ilias, John's my dad!
:)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 05:12:07 PM by Ilias_of_John »
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #355 on: May 05, 2008, 06:02:27 PM »
Thanks Lisa,
I wasn't presuming he was the heir, I was just asking!

He would appear to me to be the closest male relative to the last surviving Tsar and I am working on the theory that all House Rules on Morganomatic Marriages and primogeniture became void and extint at the time of the revolution.
Irrespective, MA has no issue and is 88.
The family does appreciate his closeness to Nicholas, as he has been Vice Chairman of the RF Association for quite some time, but I am led to believe that due to age and no children they have all agreed that his "claim", is not the one the family would ever pursue.
Anyway, thanks for the info, and it's Ilias, John's my dad!
:)

My mistake, and I realize I messed up your name Ilias, and my apologies to you.

Male primogeniture has only been thrown out the window recently in Europe, so my guess is that you are advocating a subjective system with kindship to Nicholas II as the primary criteria? Morganatic (not morganomatic) marriages do seem passe to me, as well. Plus, my argument has always been, if you don't provide dynasts with income and housing as they received under the Imperial period, why should they have to choose their mates solely out of the Gotha?

I do think, however, you should at least consider respecting the system that the family itself (or rather most of the family, that is) has developed. They (the RFA) look to Prince Nicholas Romanovich as their leader with a system of succession that will eventually go to the descendants of Xenia and Sando.

By the way, the statistics I gave you eariler exclude Nicholas R. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that, but my point stands. Those who support the dynasty have only George Mikhailovich who thus far has neither married nor fathered sons - and if he does not do both, they will either have to reconcile with the rest of the family or go extinct as so many of the branches of the family has done. Even the RFA faces extinction as it currently exists unless the Rostislav branch gets on the stick and some sons are born. It has been a full 20 years since a son has been born and survived (Prince Cory Christopher Romanov was born in the 1990's but lived only some 3 years).

My point - whomever people think "the heir" is - there is a true shortage of male line Romanovs and unless the family re-establishes itself in Russia, they are very likely to continue their rioad to obscurity.


Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #356 on: May 05, 2008, 10:43:24 PM »
I cant believe I spelt morganatic as morganomatic. Silly boy!
Anyway, I figure that the closest line of decent would be....
Grand Duchess Xenia A, as the only surviving sibling with issue,
then....

1.Princess Irina Alexandrovna of Russia (July 15, 1895 - 26 February 1970) , unfortunately she waived her rights when she married Felix          thus her children are not eligible,..through to  her brother,

2. Prince Andrei Alexandrovich of Russia (24 January 1897 - 8 May 1981) then his eldest child and only daughter,
 
3. HSH Princess Xenia Andreevna of Russia (1919-2001), I do not believe she ever had children, hence our Sydney sider Prince
4. HH Prince Michael Andreevich of Russia (b. 1920), then on to his brother,
5. HSH Prince Andrew Andreevich of Russia (b. 1923),then on to his son,
6. HH Prince Alexis Andreevich Romanov (born 1957), I do not know if this gentleman has children.

Irrespective of what I think though, it is the Russian peoples decision.


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Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #357 on: May 06, 2008, 01:39:26 AM »
I cant believe I spelt morganatic as morganomatic. Silly boy!
Anyway, I figure that the closest line of decent would be....
Grand Duchess Xenia A, as the only surviving sibling with issue,
then....

1.Princess Irina Alexandrovna of Russia (July 15, 1895 - 26 February 1970) , unfortunately she waived her rights when she married Felix          thus her children are not eligible,..through to  her brother,

2. Prince Andrei Alexandrovich of Russia (24 January 1897 - 8 May 1981) then his eldest child and only daughter,
 
3. HSH Princess Xenia Andreevna of Russia (1919-2001), I do not believe she ever had children, hence our Sydney sider Prince
4. HH Prince Michael Andreevich of Russia (b. 1920), then on to his brother,
5. HSH Prince Andrew Andreevich of Russia (b. 1923),then on to his son,
6. HH Prince Alexis Andreevich Romanov (born 1957), I do not know if this gentleman has children.

Irrespective of what I think though, it is the Russian peoples decision.




Would you include the Yurievskys? What about Olga Alexandrovna's issue?

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #358 on: May 06, 2008, 03:15:12 AM »
Without a doubt the Yurievsky issue are in the direct line of succession (irrespective of house rules and marriages).
Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna's family are however, much closer solely because they are direct relatives of  Nicholas II. I understand their immeadiate ancestor was a commoner and hence the two boys were not given royal titles, but for the purposes of my theory of house rules etc, they would be the next in line after Xenia and Sandro's line!
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #359 on: May 11, 2008, 08:55:29 AM »
Are there not several sons in the Prince Dmitri Pavlovich Ilyinsky line?  Are the Ilyinsky Boys considered dynasts????

I know they have no desire or pretense to the non existant Russian throne as they 100% Americanized but are they in the line of succession or did non eqaul marriages give them the "boot" so to speak?

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