Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 400432 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #375 on: August 27, 2008, 12:26:58 PM »

I personally favor the Ilyinskys. They have been asked back twice by the Russian people. Grand Duke Dmitry was asked back after the Revolution and refused. His son Paul Ilyinsky was asked back in the 1990's and refused. Paul has two sons, neither of whom currently has a son, but the Ilyinsky claim is strong for several reasons.

One, Dmitri Pavlovich (b. 1954) is now the senior male heir of the line of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. Second, there are numerous Ilyinskys, not just one. Third, they are the only branch of the family that has maintained excellent relations with all other branches of the family since the Revolution. They have refused to participate in the family squabbles. Fourth, they are well established in America and do not need to be claimants in order to fill otherwise empty lives.

Just my not so humble opinion!


Did not Paul say something rather "cheeky" along the lines of "I am so so sorry but I already have a job to which I have been elected.  I am the Mayor!"  True Class!

TampaBay

Although I never had the pleasure of meeting the late Prince Paul Ilyiinsky in person, I am given to undersrtand he was a consumate gentleman. He kindly received the Russian delegation that wanted him to come to Russia, and he did fulfill his duties for which he was elected.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #376 on: August 27, 2008, 01:55:03 PM »
Personally, I do not believe their IS a 'legitimate", as their is nothing to be an heir to.  If by a very long shot, the Russian monarchy were to be restored, the Russian people would decide, who would occupy the throne. Just as they did in 1613. It would not even have to be a Romanov at all.
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #377 on: August 27, 2008, 03:53:30 PM »
Personally, I do not believe their IS a 'legitimate", as their is nothing to be an heir to.  If by a very long shot, the Russian monarchy were to be restored, the Russian people would decide, who would occupy the throne. Just as they did in 1613. It would not even have to be a Romanov at all.

True enough, but our topic is "Is Grand Duke George the rightful heir?". You are welcome to discuss if there should be a future for a monarchy in Russia on another topic. (Although an occasional comment such as yours is most welcome.)

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #378 on: August 27, 2008, 04:08:44 PM »
Well, Lisa, I was addressing the  title of this thread- who is the rightful heir.  It mentions nothing about Georgi or Dimitry or anyone else, for that matter.  If forced to say, however,  I would say Georgi is the "legitimate" if not de facto heir. But that is only by the old house rules, certainly not a populist choice.
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Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #379 on: August 27, 2008, 06:20:49 PM »
I do not believe in the existence of a legitimate heir to the Romanov Throne.
IMHO however, the closest to the throne are the descendants of Xenia.
Princess Maria Vlad, although a very nice person (who has made tremendous efforts in furthering her sons claim) is more distantly related to Tsar Nicholas than his sisters children and grandchildren.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #380 on: August 27, 2008, 06:41:29 PM »
I did say- by the old family laws, that is  Orthodox and equal marriages. There is contention  about these terribly out-dated  rules.  Being closest to the last Emperor does not count, according to the  laws of sucession, as laid out by Paul. Why anyone would pay attention to these antiqauted mandates is beyond me. Yet we are bith on the same page, so to speak, there is nothing to be heir to. No throne, no family fortune. The Romanovs are not even Russian any more.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #381 on: August 27, 2008, 08:39:05 PM »
Unfortunately, you are right on most of your points.
There are some Romanov's though who do consider themselves Russian and if anything, they would be the ones to be"closest to the throne".
Some have even aplied for Russian citizenship and passports, but unfortunately their applications have been rejected.
They will however apply again.
Honour all men.
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1 Peter 2:17

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #382 on: August 27, 2008, 10:28:00 PM »
Anyone with a Russian heritage  may consider themselves "Russian"  I suppose I could, but it would go a long way back! And getting Russian citizenship/passports seems rather arbitrary- residency, marriage and  whims of the ever-changing rules, to be  kind about it. Just being a Romanov would not cut it.  THey have not married  Russian citizens and are , in most cases 2nd or 3rd or even 4th generations of the countries they were born in.  Heritage is one thing,  but it does not qualify for  a passport, in most cases. So, Maria and the others remain citizens and passport holders of the countries they were born in. Why not? We do the same in  most countries.
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Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #383 on: August 28, 2008, 03:28:45 AM »
Ofcourse Rob, I was merely stating a fact!
:)
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Offline Paul

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #384 on: August 28, 2008, 08:00:07 AM »
This may be a stupid idea, but it does occur to me occasionally. We're all speculating here, so why not?

Assume that Russia DID decide to restore the monarchy. Assume that the Powers That Be had had enough of the Romanovs & bypassed that family entirely. Assume that the Powers That Be decided to dust off some family charts, searching farther back for a candidate.

Do any Russian noble families exist that have provable, legitimate, male line descent from the pre-Romanov Rurikiev<sp> dynasty? I know that some noble families descend from the old Lithuanian ruling house, so Russian counterparts are possible.

Any ideas?
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #385 on: August 28, 2008, 10:27:09 AM »
Yes, Paul, there are Rurikinds  still around, most are actually in Russia as far as I know. And there are descendants of the old boyars from families  far older than the Romanovs.
 I once knew  a grand daughter of the GD Alexander [I think it was him, this  was about 30 years ago] She was interested in her Romanov heritage, as she  was told basically nothing by her family. But not so much in Russia itself. In those days, of course, a restoration of the monarchy was unthinkable but she would not have been interested anyway, no matter how close her family was to the throne.
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Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #386 on: August 28, 2008, 04:24:12 PM »
I did say- by the old family laws, that is  Orthodox and equal marriages. There is contention  about these terribly out-dated  rules.  Being closest to the last Emperor does not count, according to the  laws of sucession, as laid out by Paul. Why anyone would pay attention to these antiqauted mandates is beyond me. Yet we are bith on the same page, so to speak, there is nothing to be heir to. No throne, no family fortune. The Romanovs are not even Russian any more.

I actually agree with you that the Fundamental Law is not something that would apply any more.

You are incorrect, however, about the Romanovs "not even being Russian any more". What have you been doing, Robert? Hanging out with Commies? :) Seriously, though, this is an accusation lobbed at the family all the time, and apparently goes unchallenged so much that we now accept this falsehood as fact.

The majority of the descendants of Nicholas I through the male line alive today are descended from the marriage of Xenia Alexandrovna and Alexander Mikhailovich, two Russians. Many of their descendants are considered "morganauts" due to their "unequal marriages" - to Russian expatriate families. For instance, Prince Andrei Andreivich's mother was Russian, and his father obviously was. Princess Marina Vasilovna's mother - also Russian. Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich - Russian mother. I could go on and on, but that would unfortunately disillusion everyone about how "unRussian" the Romanovs are.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #387 on: August 28, 2008, 04:58:14 PM »
"Commies" have nothing to do with it, Lisa. It is fact.  There have no Russian Romanovs since Peter the Great.  They are all descended from Germans. And a Danish Empress consort. They have adopted Russian heritage, but that does not make them "Russian" per se. Even Nicholas pretended to be a Slav, he was not. His mother was a Dane, his grandmother a German. He married a German/English  woman. Todays generation would more likely call themselves 'Russian-American" or wherever they were born and raised. If even that.
 That oppressive rule about equal marriage was the cause of foreign wives.  Since Paul,  but even Catherine the Great and Peter III were both Germans.
 My view may be contentious among Romanov fans, but it is a fact and I am not the only one who feels this way.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #388 on: August 28, 2008, 05:57:37 PM »
"Commies" have nothing to do with it, Lisa. It is fact.  There have no Russian Romanovs since Peter the Great.  They are all descended from Germans. And a Danish Empress consort. They have adopted Russian heritage, but that does not make them "Russian" per se. Even Nicholas pretended to be a Slav, he was not. His mother was a Dane, his grandmother a German. He married a German/English  woman. Todays generation would more likely call themselves 'Russian-American" or wherever they were born and raised. If even that.
 That oppressive rule about equal marriage was the cause of foreign wives.  Since Paul,  but even Catherine the Great and Peter III were both Germans.
 My view may be contentious among Romanov fans, but it is a fact and I am not the only one who feels this way.

I am scarcely a "fan". I did say that I agreed with you about equal marriages, but I suppose that got lost in the shuffle.

I shall try to refrain from any attempts at humor when addressing you, Robert. The remark about Commies was obviously that. My point, and I think I made it, was that a common criticism of the family was that they were not Russian. If you accept (without DNA proof) that PTG's line died out, you still cannot say that there were no Russian Romanovs after Peter. Peter's initial successors were all (with the exception of his wife Catherine I) his descendants! CTG's husband was also a descendant.

So, Paul's equal marriage requirement did dilute the "Russian-ness" of the family, but since they all lived in Russia, spoke Russian, and were Orthodox, I think to deny the offspring of these marriages their Russian-ness is bigoted at best.

The fact remains that even if the Romanov line was not "Russian" under a narrow definition, the current day descendants I mentioned (and others) would undoubtedly qualify - as their non Romanov parents were clearly Russian, as much as revolutionaries may desire they be otherwise.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #389 on: August 28, 2008, 07:31:35 PM »
I am not saying that they may not consider themselves  Russian by heritage, Lisa, just that, genealogically, they are not. Peter IIIs father was German.  If he was indeed Paul's son, that would make him 3/4 German. And up until the end, the line kept diluting.  When Xenia married Sandro,  he had German mother and Grandmother, as did all the grand dukes and duchesses.
 I am not trying to denigrate the Romanovs, the same can be [and has] said about the Windsors. I think the only dynasties that can truely say they are native to their nationalites are indeed the Germans, as, for the most oart, they tended to marry other Germans, of equal birth, of course. Just look at the charts.
 When and if Giorrgi  decides to  marry, I think he will be hard pressed to find a wife "equal" status and Orthodox. That would put and end to the ridiclous Fundamental Laws and everyone may move beyond them.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.