Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 401546 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #435 on: November 01, 2008, 07:03:24 PM »
A great many people take their claim very seriously indeed.  Maria Vladimirovna is recognized by the Patriarch as the "Head of the Former Imperial Family" and both Yeltsin and Putin have recieved and acknowledged her.

There are several reasons that people object to her claim;

1. The fact that her great-Grandmother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the Elder was a Lutheran at the time of her son Kirill's birth. The heir to the throne must, by law, be born of an Orthodox mother.  Maria Pavlovna converted to Othodoxy late, just so that her son would be eligible to take the Throne. It has been written that Nicholas and the Dowager Empress were clear that Kirill was not eligible for the throne.  After the assassination, the Dowager Empress refused to recognize Kirill's claim for this reason.

2. That Kirill married his first cousin, Victoria Melita, an act prohibited by the Orthodox Church. This is moot, because as Head of the Church, Nicholas II recognized this marriage, so it should be ignored.

3. That Maria's father Grand Duke Vladimir contracted a marriage of unequal birth with Princess Leonida Bagration-Moukhranskaya, a member of the formal Royal family of Georgia.  Before the revolution, a marriage contracted with a Bagration would have been considered morganatic because of the absorbtion of Georgia into the Russian Empire.  After the revolution, however, the Royal Family of Georgia has the same status as any deposed royal family: France, Russia, etc.
Also, if you believe that GD Vladimir was heir to "all Imperial Rights and Privileges" than if he says that a Bagration is of Royal status, than a Bagration IS of Royal status.

4. That Georgii Mikhailovitch is a Hohenzollern, and not a Romanov.  Georgii's father, a Royal Prince of the House of Prussia, converted to Russian Orthodoxy and took the name of Mikhail.  He was accepted into the House of Romanov, and signed papers renouncing his and his son's rights to Hohenzollern names, titles, and privileges.  You have to ignore that one too.

That's the basic rundown.  What it really comes down to is that if you adhere strictly to the rules as they existed before the revolution, there is not one living Romanov descendant who has a faultless claim to the throne.  The oldest living Male in the senior branch of the family is Prince Nicholas Romanov, who only has daughters.  In terms of the most royal blood, it is without doubt Maria Vladimirovna, who is related to the British Royal family, the House of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, the Royal House of Georgia, and the Russian Imperial House.

So, in summation, its really up for grabs.  If you really want someone on the throne of Russia, my money's on Maria-she's the only member of the family who wants it, and she has worked very hard indeed to establish herself as "Curatrix of the Throne."  You have to admire her sense of duty, if not her extreme laquered hairdo.

Best,

Nick

Found this qoute on another thread.  Thought it very interesting.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #436 on: November 01, 2008, 10:23:46 PM »
Because of the extinction of the actual Ruling Family, in circumstances that were never envisioned by the creators of the old house laws, the door is wide open for any and all claimants.
However, as I have said before, those closest in blood to the last Tsar and Alexei, are, in my opinion, the closest and most authoritive claimants.
The late Prince Michael Aandreevich and I both discussed this issue at some length,and although HH Prince Michael was very diplomatic in his responses and comments,I can assure you that most Royal Families in Europe and beyond,and all senior Romanov's today,believe that Princess Maria's claims are inappropriate and almost comical.
However, alot of the senior Romanov's don' want the job, some are not even Russian speakers, and God forbid, some are not even Orthodox.
A shame really.
So, I do reiiterate, the door is wide open,but we do need to remember that it is up to the Russian people and their politicians.
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #437 on: November 01, 2008, 11:05:37 PM »
Yes, IF a monarchy were to ever be restored, is need not necessarily be Romanov.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #438 on: November 02, 2008, 05:41:02 AM »

So, I do reiterate, the door is wide open, but we do need to remember that it is up to the Russian people and their politicians.


I find the above part of your post very interesting because it is identical to the position that Impress Marie took and also to some degree that of the Romanov Family Association from what I have read.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #439 on: November 02, 2008, 09:30:51 AM »
Not exactly, TB. The Dowager Empress maitained until her death that NII was still alive.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #440 on: November 02, 2008, 02:31:18 PM »
Not exactly, TB. The Dowager Empress maintained until her death that NII was still alive.

Who basically said ( and I am paraphrasing), The Russian people have a right to choose who they want as a monarch and if the want a Romanov they have a right to choose any Romanov they want"?  I read where someone said this, or a slightly different variation, and it was said before WWII.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #441 on: November 02, 2008, 10:12:21 PM »
From wiki,


"During the February Revolution of 1917, upon the abdication of the tsar, Cyril came with his regiment to swear allegiance to the provisional government, wearing a red revolutionary band on his uniform.[6][1] This caused grave offence in the Imperial Family and led to many members shunning him as legitimate heir to the Throne."

Solely for this reason, irrespective that Princess Maria is a very nice person,the true claimants are the decendants of GD Xenia.



I know Irina did not marry equally.  How many of Xenia's sons married equally or made approved dynastic matches?

TampaBay

None. Andrei married an Italian/Russian widow of the nobility while they were still in the Crimea. Next son Feodor married his cousin Irene Paley (daughter of GD Paul) in 1923,  Niikita married Princess Maria Vorontsov-Dashkov in 1922, and their brother Dmitri also married a Russian noblewoman. All of the foregoing princes and Irena lived their lives in Europe. In contrast, Prince Rostislav and his youngest brother Vasili made their way to the United States. However, just like their brothers, they married Russian noblewomen , many of them daughters of the friends of their parents. Rostislav married Princess Alexandra Galitzine, while Vasili married Princess Marina Galitzine.

Junior branch dynasts were not required to marry equally under the Fundamental Law. However, due to the decimation of the family during the Revolution, many think they needed to in order to have their children be included in the succession.

Offline Nick_Nicholson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 199
  • www.objectofvirtue.com
    • View Profile
    • Nicholas B. A. Nicholson
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #442 on: November 03, 2008, 01:58:20 PM »
Yes, Lisa.  Exactly.  That is why Nicholas of the RFA asserts his own claim, though he doesn't press it.  Nicholas' father as a russian prince of the imperial blood was not required to marry with the emperor's permission.  As his parents were not required by house law to contract a marriage of equal birth, his own union does not need to be with someone of equal birth.  (Though it should be acknowleged that as his mother was a Cheremeteff, his is still a member of the highest Russian nobility, and his wife is a Della Gherardesca, a member of a Florentine noble family far older than either the Romanovs or the Cheremeteffs.  In fact, some would say Nicholas married up!

Nick Nicholson
New York City

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #443 on: November 03, 2008, 03:44:29 PM »
Yes, Lisa.  Exactly.  That is why Nicholas of the RFA asserts his own claim, though he doesn't press it.  Nicholas' father as a russian prince of the imperial blood was not required to marry with the emperor's permission.  As his parents were not required by house law to contract a marriage of equal birth, his own union does not need to be with someone of equal birth.  (Though it should be acknowleged that as his mother was a Cheremeteff, his is still a member of the highest Russian nobility, and his wife is a Della Gherardesca, a member of a Florentine noble family far older than either the Romanovs or the Cheremeteffs.  In fact, some would say Nicholas married up!


Thank you, Nick! Yes, many of the families that the Mikhailovichi married into are actually older and arguably more distinguished than the Romanovs. And, the Mikhailovichi can also claim to be more Russian than the pre-Revolutionary grand dukes! Prince Andrei points out his paternal grandparents were both Romanovs, and his mother was also Russian, and his first wife was Russian.

My own argument about the equal marriage requirement is that it was something that included a provision for government supported income - something that obviously is not available to the present day family members.

Offline Nick_Nicholson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 199
  • www.objectofvirtue.com
    • View Profile
    • Nicholas B. A. Nicholson
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #444 on: November 03, 2008, 06:44:53 PM »
Lisa, I would pleasantly argue that the equal birth was a requirement for membership in the Imperial family and status of dynast, from which an imperial stipend would come.  Also, the monies paid came from the private purses of the Imperial family, not from the russian civil government.  Unlike Britain, where the Royal family are paid from the "Privy Purse" which includes tax monies, the members of the Imperial family were supported by the Tsar.   Tax monies went to support civil programs, like the salaries for the duma, etc.
Nick Nicholson
New York City

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #445 on: November 04, 2008, 03:36:19 AM »
Nick, nice of you to join us.
Remember that unlike the British Royal Family, the Imperial Family of Russia owned most of Russia, hence not requiring subsidies from the Privy Purse, they owned the Privy purse!
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #446 on: November 04, 2008, 12:46:04 PM »
Nick, nice of you to join us.
Remember that unlike the British Royal Family, the Imperial Family of Russia owned most of Russia, hence not requiring subsidies from the Privy Purse, they owned the Privy purse!

It all gets rather muddy. That was my understanding from Prince Andrei.

At any rate, housing and money were provided to dynasts who toed the line under the old system.

None now. And, personally, I would far rather see a system where dynasts are admonished to marry persons of good character than simply because of someone's ancestors. Some of the "equals" were of good character, some were not.

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #447 on: November 04, 2008, 01:48:40 PM »
I never thought about until now but it does seem that Vladimir kinda sorta married equally as both he and his wife were both from deposed royal houses.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #448 on: November 05, 2008, 05:02:38 AM »
yeah and.........?
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline TampaBay

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Being TampaBay is a Full Time Job.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #449 on: November 05, 2008, 07:24:24 AM »

I had always been interested the the Vladimir marriage and the concern that Princess Leonida Bagration-Moukhranskaya was not from a ruling house. Then it hit me like a bolt of thunder that Vladimir himself was no longer of a ruling house.  Before the 1917 the marriage may be viewed as "Unequal" but after 1917 it seems very "Equal" to me.  Dethroned royalty marrying dethrone royalty.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.