Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 398247 times)

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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #450 on: November 05, 2008, 01:06:01 PM »
I've always thought that too. They were both royalty once. It wasn't like he was marrying nobility. I'd agree a system where marrying just because of ancestry isn't as good as marrying someone for their character- good point.

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #451 on: November 23, 2008, 11:29:23 PM »
I have read every argument, and have spoken to so many experts, it seems to me that the only thing on which Maria Vladimirovna's claim hinges is the interpretation of the law that the Tsar must have an Orthodox mother.  In Russian (and English) it is unclear if the heir to the throne must be born of an Orthodox, or if the heir's mother must be Orthodox at the time of the ascension.  I can't find a single instance where a Tsar was born of a non-convert. 

If the law adheres to the former, Kirill, Vladimir, and Maria are out (and Nicholas and Maria Feodorovna's opinion would make sense here).  If the latter, there is no question.
Nick Nicholson
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #452 on: November 27, 2008, 08:38:34 AM »

I've always been less bothered about the Orthodox arguements than any others. Prior to 1917 all of Grand Duke Kyril's family were regarded as Dynasts despite the late conversion of Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna - the fact that the all bore the appropriate styles and titles and that Kyril was certainly regarded as a dynast when he married Victoria Melita suggests that although Marie Pavlovna hadn't converted at that point it wasn't regarded as being an impediment to her children's rights whatever the Pauline Laws might have said. The marriage of Prince/Grand Duke Vladimir is different and whatever has been written and argued about since there is little doubt that the marriage wouldn't have been regarded as equal before 1917.  A deposed dynasty converted into Russian Prince's was not the same as a member of the House of Holstein Gottorp Romanov - their rights might have been guaranteed by treaty but they do not seem to have enjoyed the same semi imperial status enjoyed by the Leuchtenbergs or the Oldenburgs. The Bagrations don't appear to have enjoyed any special status anymore than the princely houses who were descended from the Rurikid rulers of the varying Russian states prior to the unification of Russia.
Kyril and Vladimir were in my view undoubtedly the next two in line following the revolution - however Kyril and Vladimir's insistance on maintaining the family rules (as de facto Emperors - they could have done what other deposed Royal Houses have done and ammended their own house rules with the agreements of other senior family members - the Fundamental Laws were effectively dead - with the revolution - on an anticipated restoration new laws could enacted) put Vladimir in the position of defending his marriage whilst denigrating the marriages of his relations (many of whom had married into the Russian aristocracy) - had he had a son it might not have been such a problem for him. But his continuing insistance that his marriage was equal and secondly that with the deaths of his cousins he was the last male dynast split the family and left them where they are today. Given that any modern restoration would almost certainly do what the surviving European monarchies have done and see an ammendment to the rules regarding female succession etc then you could make arguements that the nearest relatives of the last reigning Czar (the descendants of Xenia Alexandrovna) would have the greater claim, or that Maria Vladimirovna being the senior surviving male line descendant has the greatest rights.

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #453 on: November 29, 2008, 02:35:52 PM »

I've always been less bothered about the Orthodox arguements than any others. Prior to 1917 all of Grand Duke Kyril's family were regarded as Dynasts despite the late conversion of Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna - the fact that the all bore the appropriate styles and titles and that Kyril was certainly regarded as a dynast when he married Victoria Melita suggests that although Marie Pavlovna hadn't converted at that point it wasn't regarded as being an impediment to her children's rights whatever the Pauline Laws might have said. The marriage of Prince/Grand Duke Vladimir is different and whatever has been written and argued about since there is little doubt that the marriage wouldn't have been regarded as equal before 1917.  A deposed dynasty converted into Russian Prince's was not the same as a member of the House of Holstein Gottorp Romanov - their rights might have been guaranteed by treaty but they do not seem to have enjoyed the same semi imperial status enjoyed by the Leuchtenbergs or the Oldenburgs. The Bagrations don't appear to have enjoyed any special status anymore than the princely houses who were descended from the Rurikid rulers of the varying Russian states prior to the unification of Russia.
Kyril and Vladimir were in my view undoubtedly the next two in line following the revolution - however Kyril and Vladimir's insistance on maintaining the family rules (as de facto Emperors - they could have done what other deposed Royal Houses have done and ammended their own house rules with the agreements of other senior family members - the Fundamental Laws were effectively dead - with the revolution - on an anticipated restoration new laws could enacted) put Vladimir in the position of defending his marriage whilst denigrating the marriages of his relations (many of whom had married into the Russian aristocracy) - had he had a son it might not have been such a problem for him. But his continuing insistance that his marriage was equal and secondly that with the deaths of his cousins he was the last male dynast split the family and left them where they are today. Given that any modern restoration would almost certainly do what the surviving European monarchies have done and see an ammendment to the rules regarding female succession etc then you could make arguements that the nearest relatives of the last reigning Czar (the descendants of Xenia Alexandrovna) would have the greater claim, or that Maria Vladimirovna being the senior surviving male line descendant has the greatest rights.

While I agree with you on the fact that Kyrill was a dynast, (as a grandson of an Emperor and the product of a marriage of equal birth), that is separate from his status in the succession.  Remember that initially, there was Nicholas and his brothers George and Michael, followed by All of Alexander's brothers.  At Kirill's birth, it was inimportant for him to be born of an Orthodox mother, as his claim to the throne was remote.  Maria Pavlovna the Elder's late conversion to orthodoxy was entirely due to her realization that Kirill was soon to be in line.  This was a first occurrence of this situation, and so the question of whether or not Kirill could succeed was real indeed, which is why so many supported Grand Duke Nicholas.

Also, if you start using the Morganatic marriages, then I would argue the Yourievskys or Ilyinskys have a greater claim as direct descendants of Alexander II.
Nick Nicholson
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Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #454 on: November 30, 2008, 02:17:55 AM »
As I have said many times before, and the greatest majority of living Romanovs believe, those closest to the throne/heirs   are the decendants of GD Xenia.
However,  this entire conversation is irrelevant, as it is up to the Russian people to decide if they even want a Monarch,  and then it is up to the Duma to appoint one.
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Multiverse

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #455 on: January 18, 2009, 09:22:15 PM »
As I have said many times before, and the greatest majority of living Romanovs believe, those closest to the throne/heirs   are the decendants of GD Xenia.
However,  this entire conversation is irrelevant, as it is up to the Russian people to decide if they even want a Monarch,  and then it is up to the Duma to appoint one.


Excuse me, but I think the conversation is relevant. When that time comes, and I believe it will come and probably sooner than later, you know whoever is appointed or becomes Tsar isn't going to be the equivelant of John Doe average Russian. Common sense tells me it will be a Romanov, and common sense also tells me it will probably be a descendent of Grand Duchess Xenia.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #456 on: January 18, 2009, 10:59:59 PM »
In an ideal world,Multiverse,I would agree with you wholeheartedly and unequivacally.
The issue is that the Duma, Church, Prime Minister and President of Russia appear to aknoweledge Princess Maria's claim as being the more legitimate of the Romanov's.
Xenia's decendants are either all heirless or have married way below their rank,some even two or three times.
As I have said on many numerous occassions, I believe that Xenia's grandsons,Michael and Andrew are those closest to the throne, now that HIH Prince Michael has passed,his brother HIH Prince Andrew is "heir", BUT I  CANNOT SEE HIM AS BEING AN ACCEPTABLE CANDIDATE.
Perhaps, Xenia in Greece and or her daughters?, but they are more Greek than Russian now.
Anyway, it is all up to the Russian State and her President!
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Multiverse

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #457 on: January 19, 2009, 12:26:26 AM »
That being the case Ilias of John, then I guess it would most likely be Princess Maria or more likely her son.

All I know is that I believe The Russian Monarchy will be restored, that it will happen sooner rather than later, and that it will be with a Romanov on The Imperial Russian Throne as Tsar.

A dream one had 29 years ago may seem a strange thing on which to base such a belief, but as I have said, I believe what I do about the restoration because of a dream I had in January 1980 in which I saw the restoration of The Russian Monarchy and of The Romanov Dynasty.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #458 on: January 19, 2009, 02:56:56 AM »
Dreams are the windows to the soul, or is that eyes?
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #459 on: January 19, 2009, 06:37:41 AM »
  Eyes.      Kind regards,  AP

Multiverse

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #460 on: January 19, 2009, 08:50:02 AM »
Dreams are the windows to the soul, or is that eyes?


I have always wondered what that saying meant. I also wonder if those two dreams I had 29 years ago were prophetic. Often over the years I thought I was seeing the future and if so just what form it will take. I suppose as they say, only time will tell. I just know what I dreamed years ago and what I feel about it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 08:53:45 AM by Multiverse »

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #461 on: January 19, 2009, 03:12:04 PM »
Last night I dreamt I was eating a giant marshmellow.
I woke up this morning and I cant find my pillow!
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #462 on: January 20, 2009, 11:02:21 PM »
Back to topic, please.

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #463 on: January 30, 2009, 08:08:20 AM »
Somewhere on the forum there was a picture of GD George taken when he accepted a job. 

I cannot find it. 

Does anyone know which thread it was posted on.

Thanks!

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #464 on: February 03, 2009, 10:51:25 AM »


I found it on another thread! 

GD George is starting to look more "European Russian" as opposed to "Georgian" as he gets older IMO.

TampaBay
"Fashion is so rarely great art that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we should stop going to the mall.