Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 398209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #495 on: March 03, 2010, 05:06:39 PM »
and he is about to marry below his rank, which then leaves young Phillipos,
And what if he doesn't marry according to the Pauline Law? Are there any other male (and if not, female) lines in the Greek RF today that is the product of strictly equal marriages? Even the children of his royal Spanish cousins are not Russian dynasts according to the Pauline laws.

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #496 on: March 03, 2010, 05:13:22 PM »
To the best of my knoweledge, and I have been wrong before, there is no one in the world who is a Russian dynast according to the Pauline laws.
However, it doesent matter, as V. Putin(or his successors) will appoint whomsoever they wish, if they ever do..
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Margot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #497 on: March 03, 2010, 05:34:54 PM »
Pretty difficult one to even try and contemplate because of the orthodox issue!

I suppose now that Prince Nicholas of Greece is getting hitched to another commoner that leaves King Constantine, Prince Philippos and Princess Theodora as impeccable line descended 'heirs'. If the latter they should marry equally and in Philippos' case to an Orthodox Princess, then they would appear to be the most eligible heirs fulfilling both criteria that I can find under the Pauline and later ukases etc! Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark comes fourth. After these four I had real trouble finding possible heirs born out of Orthodox mothers from marriages of equal standing! I got a bit stumped to be honest with you! You have the present King of Romania of cause but none of his daughters have married equally so that ends that line so to speak also I don't know if Marie of Romania ever converted to Orthodoxy did she? Then you have Ileana's line which appears to be Catholic now! Alexandra's line is the same as none are orthodox! The same would apply to the Schaumburg Lippes descended from Grand Duchess Vera Constantinovna and the Dutch Royals from Grand Duchess Anna Pavlovna on religious grounds! Gosh it is very difficult to actually get away from the fact that the Greeks look like hands down unimpeachable candidates under the myriad laws and rules of Orthodox mother and equal marriages! What a fascinating and complex issue to even ponder let alone study!

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #498 on: March 03, 2010, 05:42:28 PM »
stpo it,
you're giving me a headache!
And besides, find an Orthodox Princess for Phillipos to marry!


 ???
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Margot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #499 on: March 03, 2010, 05:45:36 PM »
Prince Michael of Greece and Denmark was born out of an equal marriage but whether his mother was orthodox at the time I do not know! Anyway neither of his daughters would be eligible anyway as they were born out of an unequal marriage!

Having looked a bit further and if we do disregard the orthodoxy issue for a moment which would then leave MV and George as acknowledged heirs the only other heirs of equal marriages that I could find were Kira's daughter Marie Cecilie and her children, Queen Sofia of Spain, Queen Margarethe II of Denmark and her sisters! With regards to the Spanish, none have married equally and QMII married unequally so her sons would be discounted, this leave Benedikte who seemed to have married equally and has an unmarried son too! But her mother in law was a commoner so that would leave a rather untidy question mark over the eligibility of Benedikte's children as issue of questionable 'equal' marriage in the Pauline and later Ukase sense. Therefore we are still back to King Constantine and his wife Queen Anne Marie and their unmarried children!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:05:22 PM by Margot »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #500 on: March 03, 2010, 05:49:47 PM »
Having looked a bit further and if we do disregard the orthodoxy issue for a moment which would then leave MV and George as acknowledged heirs the only other heirs of equal marriages that I could find were Kira's children, Queen Sofia of Spain, Queen Margarethe II of Denmark and her sisters! With regards to the Spanish, none have married equally and QMII married unequally so her sons would be discounted, this leave Benedikte who seemed to have married equally and has an unmarried son too!

How could Margrethe II, Benedikte and Anne-Marie be dynasts? None of their ancestors were Romanovs, were they?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 05:51:37 PM by Rœrik »

Offline Margot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #501 on: March 03, 2010, 05:53:35 PM »
Margarethe's grandmother Queen Alexandrine was a daughter of Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia and Frederick Franz III Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin! So technically yes the Queen Margarethe and her sisters are potential dynasts through the Female line! Orthodoxy issues not taken into account!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 05:56:46 PM by Margot »

Offline Margot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #502 on: March 03, 2010, 06:11:21 PM »
Sadly of Kira's progeny the only one who has not married unequally thus far appears to be her grand daughter the 'glamour puss' Duchess Rixa of Oldenburg! If she was to marry a nice impeccably bred Prince then she could make a splendid candidate!

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #503 on: March 03, 2010, 06:21:02 PM »
Margarethe's grandmother Queen Alexandrine was a daughter of Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia and Frederick Franz III Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin! So technically yes the Queen Margarethe and her sisters are potential dynasts through the Female line! Orthodoxy issues not taken into account!

Mighty Mecklenburg, I didn't think of that! Through Anne-Marie it's good for the Greek "claim" too, then, which really has a lot going for itself besides the technical Pauline claim: Orthodoxy, Oldenburg (as in Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov) descent, another princely Slavic line (i.e. the originally Wendish Mecklenburgs) and perhaps the ancient Viking Kings of Denmark also were related to Rurik? If only some of Anne-Marie's children would marry equally! I am crossing my fingers for Princess Theodora marrying Grand Duke George!!! (Better that than Prince Philippos marrying the 16 years older Duchess Rixa of Oldenburg!)


« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:26:35 PM by Rœrik »

Offline Margot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #504 on: March 03, 2010, 06:23:05 PM »
I would also have liked to include Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia as an heir. But his maternal's grandmother's status leaves a whopping shadow over the pedigree critireria which is a shame as Alexander married a proper Princess too! Then there is Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia the Elder and his children born out of two impeccable equal marriages as far as I can tell! Prince Alexander is a Romanov though his mother Princess Elizabeth of Greece and Denmark

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #505 on: March 03, 2010, 06:26:00 PM »
Something tells me neither the Greek nor Serbian Royal Family's are interested!
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #506 on: March 03, 2010, 06:36:03 PM »
I would also have liked to include Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia as an heir. But his maternal's grandmother's status leaves a whopping shadow over the pedigree critireria which is a shame as Alexander married a proper Princess too!
Actually, I don't think that matters. Unlike the Habsburg House Laws, the Pauline Laws don't demand showing that all 16 or 32 or whatever great grandparents were noble. (And as we know Aspasia Manos's blood was quite noble.) Otherwise Emperor Paul would find it hard to explain his own right to the throne with regard to his own great grandmother Ekaterina I née Marta Skowrońska!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:37:37 PM by Rœrik »

Offline Margot

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #507 on: March 03, 2010, 06:42:42 PM »
I was woking under the strict rationale that marriages had to be equal! Aspasia and King Alexander's marriage was never deemed as equal thus with Pauline law this proves an issue of some doubt! Regardless of Catherine I's background I thought we were only considering pedigrees that would stand up under scrutiny? Otherwise Prince Nicholas R and Prince Dimitri R would have been my first candidates to the immediate relegation of the ghastly MV and her son down the pecking order!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:56:31 PM by Margot »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #508 on: March 03, 2010, 06:59:17 PM »
I was woking under the strict rationale that marriages had to be equal! Aspasia and King Alexander's marriage was never deemed as equal thus with Pauline law this proves an issue of some doubt! Regardless of Catherine I's background I thought we were only considering pedigrees that would stand up under scrutiny? Otherwise Prince Nicholas R and Prince Dimitri R would have been my first candidates!
If the only demand is that spouses have to be from "reigning families", their mothers might be peasants as long as their fathers are reigning or dynasts, the marriage isn't morganatic and the offspring is fully recognized as Princes and Princesses of the respective monarchy. For example all the current young princes and princesses in Scandinavia would be accepted as ebenbürtige matches in the traditional sense, despite their mothers (and some of their grandparents) being commoners, because they are from actually reigning families.

"Reigning" trumps everything. It's only when you go into the deposed and mediatized sections 2 and 3 of the Gotha that you have to watch your quarterings!

I do now see your point about Princess Alexandra of Greece and Denmark, who despite her title and style of HRH was a kind of morganaut and married a sort of exiled king. Had Peter II actually reigned at the time and publicly made her his queen I don't think there could have been any doubt.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 07:04:28 PM by Rœrik »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #509 on: March 06, 2010, 04:35:44 AM »
For all its hypotheticality, I do enjoy musing who is "the right heir". Contrary to most people, I guess, I started out as a Maria Vladimirovna supporter and now find myself leaning towards Prince Nicholas Romanovich! Even though I don't take any humane considerations into account (OK, except that I do very much like that his mother was born a Countess Sheremeteva; though Italian countesses like his wife seem to be a dime a dozen) I have started to question why the Pauline Laws should apply when the dynasty isn't reigning/imperial. I think the most benevolent position is that there are no more true dynasts and they're all just Hohenzollerns and Princes Romanovsky.

BTW how lovely ironic isn't it that although no longer Russian dynasts, they all are Holstein-Gottorps (the ducal Oldenburgs had no house laws - thus several spouses were mere countesses!) and heirs of their pretender title: Наследник Норвежский - Heir to Norway! :-)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 04:44:44 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »