Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 400538 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #525 on: March 09, 2010, 08:16:12 PM »
I'm confused Margot, what are you talking about? I think the debate over who is the rightful heir has largely finished, the general consensus in of Russia aswell as other European monarchists/chivalry organisations seems to be that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and her son's claims are valid - making them the only dynasts. There are plenty of high quality arguements that support this - from GD Maria's lawyer(lawyers?) aswell as scholars in general. Even the new (albeit not as authoritative as old) Almanach de Gotha lists her as heir. Most arguements to the contraty seem to rely on emotion (dislike of GD Maria) or misinterpretation of the Pauline Laws.

http://www.almanachdegotha.org/id112.html

Not entirely true.

There are many Russian immigrants in other lands who support a democratic Russia without a monarchy. Many of these people believe none of the surviving Romanovs are "rightful heirs" for various (and many non emotional) reasons. This group includes, I might add, the majority of the living descendants of Emperor Nicholas I, who comprise the organization "RFA" or Romanov Family Association. Instead of restoring the monarchy, they are primarily interested in helping Russia deal with her current problems. That's rather refreshing, don't you think?

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #526 on: March 10, 2010, 01:26:46 AM »
Quote from: LisaDavidson
There are many Russian immigrants in other lands who support a democratic Russia without a monarchy.
I don't think I mentioned anything in relation to this. I don't think anybody seriously believes that there is an actual chance of a Romanov restoration in Russia.
Quote
Many of these people believe none of the surviving Romanovs are "rightful heirs" for various (and many non emotional) reasons.
Do you have any links to pieces that present these arguments? Is GD Maria Vladimirovna less of a Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov than Nicholas II and his forefathers were?
Quote
This group includes, I might add, the majority of the living descendants of Emperor Nicholas I, who comprise the organization "RFA" or Romanov Family Association. Instead of restoring the monarchy, they are primarily interested in helping Russia deal with her current problems. That's rather refreshing, don't you think?
The OP in this thread asks who is the rightful heir. That's what we're discussing. The Romanov Family Association holds that there are no Romanov dynasts. It ended, so they say, with Grand Duke Vladimior Kirilovich - his designated heir GD Maria Vladimirovna is the product of a morgantic marriage with Grand Duchess Leonida... There are plenty of sound arguments that reject this claim, I'm sure you're aware of them. You disagree?

I mean, the whole term of 'rightful heir' is slightly ambiguous. Is rightful according the Pauline Laws? Or were the pre-1917 Romanov's gifted with some divine right which the present descendants don't posses? Just look at the succession of monarchs and their relationship with one another. I think alot of people feel that because Nicholas II's children died (his direct heirs) that the whole dynasty/family ended and that's that. What about Empress Anna? During that succession crisis she was chosen simply because she was the niece of Peter the Great. Look at Ivan VI... The Romanov succession throughout history its history is very messy - from killing for the throne, or in the case of Grand Duke Constantine refusing to accept it and deferring it to his brother who would become Emperor Nicholas I. Perhaps if they ever decide to restore a constituional Romanov monarch they'll convene a Zemsky Sobor - will that make them a right ruler?

Offline kmerov

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #527 on: March 11, 2010, 09:12:21 AM »
I think the who is the "rightful heir" question was according to the Pauline Laws. Anything else does not matter on the issue of who is the Head of the Romanov family, and thus the Romanov heir to the throne.


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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #528 on: March 11, 2010, 10:48:28 AM »
I agree with kmerov: This debate is not about who is the most eligible candidate in the unlikely scenario that the Russian people wanted to elect a new emperor, but who is the legal Romanov heir.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 10:56:33 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #529 on: March 11, 2010, 12:44:40 PM »
Quote from: LisaDavidson
There are many Russian immigrants in other lands who support a democratic Russia without a monarchy.
I don't think I mentioned anything in relation to this. I don't think anybody seriously believes that there is an actual chance of a Romanov restoration in Russia.
Quote
Many of these people believe none of the surviving Romanovs are "rightful heirs" for various (and many non emotional) reasons.
Do you have any links to pieces that present these arguments? Is GD Maria Vladimirovna less of a Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov than Nicholas II and his forefathers were?
Quote
This group includes, I might add, the majority of the living descendants of Emperor Nicholas I, who comprise the organization "RFA" or Romanov Family Association. Instead of restoring the monarchy, they are primarily interested in helping Russia deal with her current problems. That's rather refreshing, don't you think?
The OP in this thread asks who is the rightful heir. That's what we're discussing. The Romanov Family Association holds that there are no Romanov dynasts. It ended, so they say, with Grand Duke Vladimior Kirilovich - his designated heir GD Maria Vladimirovna is the product of a morgantic marriage with Grand Duchess Leonida... There are plenty of sound arguments that reject this claim, I'm sure you're aware of them. You disagree?

I mean, the whole term of 'rightful heir' is slightly ambiguous. Is rightful according the Pauline Laws? Or were the pre-1917 Romanov's gifted with some divine right which the present descendants don't posses? Just look at the succession of monarchs and their relationship with one another. I think alot of people feel that because Nicholas II's children died (his direct heirs) that the whole dynasty/family ended and that's that. What about Empress Anna? During that succession crisis she was chosen simply because she was the niece of Peter the Great. Look at Ivan VI... The Romanov succession throughout history its history is very messy - from killing for the throne, or in the case of Grand Duke Constantine refusing to accept it and deferring it to his brother who would become Emperor Nicholas I. Perhaps if they ever decide to restore a constituional Romanov monarch they'll convene a Zemsky Sobor - will that make them a right ruler?

These questions can be tough to answer. I believe that if you're looking at the Fundamental Law that unquestionably Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has the best claim. However, as a family, the Romanovs have tended to be rather paternalistic, and that, combined with the generations long feud between the Nicholievichi and the Vladamirovichi gave rise to the current situation which pits the Grand Duchess and the RFA against one another. So, my own view has become - the future of the dynasty rests with George M and his ability to marry the right wife and beget more male children. Without this, the legitimist argument will quite literally become extinct.

Offline JonC

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #530 on: March 15, 2010, 01:34:24 PM »
I saw a link on one of the board on this site, sorry, I don't remember where, it was termed ' God, the Tsar and Russia.' Well it was quite an amazing revelation to me to find out how afraid this group was of Democracy and Nato. There was a part where a young boy, maybe 12 or 13 yrs old who was very scared that the Americans along with Nato were going to attack Russia and destroy his world. He and others portrayed there wanted the Tsar to be restored.
Its obvious that if non of the Romanovs are going to be selected to be the next Tsar is it possible for anyone else to simply make his own rules and become the new Tsar? i.e. If the Romanovs are not there to enforce their rules what's to stop someone else to get selected by the people and stipulate his own requirements? By the impression I got from the above film it seems that some Russians are eagerly waiting for it to happen. I know the Cossacks are. JonC.

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #531 on: March 16, 2010, 12:11:41 AM »
Quote from: LisaDavidson
These questions can be tough to answer. I believe that if you're looking at the Fundamental Law that unquestionably Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has the best claim. However, as a family, the Romanovs have tended to be rather paternalistic, and that, combined with the generations long feud between the Nicholievichi and the Vladamirovichi gave rise to the current situation which pits the Grand Duchess and the RFA against one another. So, my own view has become - the future of the dynasty rests with George M and his ability to marry the right wife and beget more male children. Without this, the legitimist argument will quite literally become extinct.
Agreed.
Quote from: JonC
You're right that it doesn't have to be a Romanov Czar. In fact, in the early 90's when the monarchy debate was slightly more active than it is now ( Romanov legitimists vs others) Russian Nationalists groups wanted the descendants of the Soviet Field Marshal Zhukov to be the new ruling dynasty of Russia - I don't know if people are still advocating that today, but it's certain that a lot of Russian Nationalists movements want to see someone with Russian blood on the throne and not a German or any other nationality.

Offline JonC

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #532 on: March 16, 2010, 11:59:55 AM »
Richard, I agree with what you say here but that's not my quote. JonC.

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #533 on: March 17, 2010, 04:47:09 AM »
Yeah I said it. I quoted myself by accident haha.

Offline JonC

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #534 on: March 17, 2010, 09:58:06 AM »
.... So, my own view has become - the future of the dynasty rests with George M and his ability to marry the right wife and beget more male children. Without this, the legitimist argument will quite literally become extinct.

Lisa, you can't have it both ways. George and his mother are products of morganatic marriages. His line is totally not valid as per the secessionist ideal, and then you say that he must ' marry the right wife '. How could his new line with his new ' legitimate wife ' then produce ' legitimate children ' when he isn't ' legitimate ' to begin with? The people of Russia might as well go down the street and simply pick someone and that will be it.

As far as Democracy is concerned most Russians I've come into contact with and what I've read about think that Democracy is of the Devil because of all the individual freedoms that come with it which has already caused, within the cities, a marked increase in crime and a breakdown of the family structure.

The ' Stalin ' that they are looking for is not that murderer, known historically, responsible for killing millions of his own people, but a strong leader who will rule, by the grace of God, with an iron scepter base on justice and loving kindness for his people and the land. Where is such a person? I believe God will provide him in His good time. JonC.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 10:07:18 AM by JonC »

Offline kmerov

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #535 on: March 17, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »

Lisa, you can't have it both ways. George and his mother are products of morganatic marriages. His line is totally not valid as per the secessionist ideal, and then you say that he must ' marry the right wife '. How could his new line with his new ' legitimate wife ' then produce ' legitimate children ' when he isn't ' legitimate ' to begin with? The people of Russia might as well go down the street and simply pick someone and that will be it.


George and his mother are not products of morganatic marriages. The people of Russia can choose anyone they wish, regardless of George's status.

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #536 on: March 17, 2010, 06:58:29 PM »
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Lisa, you can't have it both ways. George and his mother are products of morganatic marriages.
There are plenty of arguments that argue against this notion with great rigor and I agree with them. Where are the arguements declaring GD Maria the product of a morganatic marriage? Or is it just based off statements from Nicholas Romanov?

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #537 on: April 10, 2010, 12:22:52 AM »
Nicholas Romanovich seems to be the choice of most members of the Romanoff family that I know.  The view about Maria Vladimirovich is that she seems to be overly ambitious and overly self promoting.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #538 on: April 10, 2010, 01:09:52 AM »
Nicholas Romanovich seems to be the choice of most members of the Romanoff family that I know.  The view about Maria Vladimirovich is that she seems to be overly ambitious and overly self promoting.

All the Imperial laws that supported the former Russian monarchy were extinguished in March, 1917 and replaced by the laws enacted by the Provisional Government before the Soviets implemented their own body of law to cement their unfettered authority.

The laws of the Russian Federation do not provide for a monarchy. Therefore any thoughts that there is some kind of "rightful heir" can only be described as an absolute folly.

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #539 on: April 10, 2010, 07:00:40 AM »
That is quite obvious.  Most of the Romanoffs except for Maria Vlad recognize that but laws are malleable and can be changed.