Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 401553 times)

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Offline Macedonsky

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #300 on: April 26, 2005, 08:34:57 AM »
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As of 1917, the order of succession to Nicholas was:
4. HIH Prince Vladimir Kirilovich (b. 1917)

HH

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #301 on: June 17, 2005, 11:32:57 AM »
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HH


Mr. Macedonsky,

When did Vladimir become and H.I.H.  ???  Is Grand Duke George and H.I.H. ???

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David_Pritchard

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #302 on: June 18, 2005, 12:07:03 AM »
When Vladimir Kyrilovich was born, he was simply one of many great grandsons of Emperor Aleksander II, entitled to the style of Highness and the title of Prince of the Imperial Blood.

After Nicholas II, Aleksei and Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich were executed the following year Vladimir's status changed from Prince of the Imperial Blood to Heir of the Head of the Imperial Russian House. In acknowledgement of this change of stautus,Vladimir's father HIH Grand Duke Kyril Vladimirovich of Russia (de jure Emperor of Russia) granted him the style of Imperial Highness and the title of Grand Duke.

Upon the death of Grand Duke Kyril, Grand Duke Vladimir became the Head of the Imperial House of Russia, a status which was recognised by many if not most of the pre-1917 members of the Imperial Family including GD Boris, GD Andrew, GD Dimitri Pavlovich and other Imperial and Royal Houses.

Grand Duke Vladimir granted the style of Imperial Highness and title of Grand Duchess to his only child Maria Vladimirovna. When it was quite apparent that there would be no more male Romanov children produced from equal marriages as required by the Fundemental Law, Grand Duke Vladimir appointed his daughter the caretaker of the Throne.

HIH GD Maria Vladimirovna of course made an equal marriage with a Hohenzollern prince and has issue, one son, HIH Grand Duke George.

DAP
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by David_Pritchard »

Offline QueenEna1887

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #303 on: July 26, 2005, 11:23:24 PM »
I don't believe for one second that all of Nicholas & Alexandra's children died in the Ipatiev House. Nicholas and Alexandra died their for sure but I don't believe all of their children died. If I could only prove it without others thinking I'm crazy!! I think the rightful heir should be a descendant of Nicholas II through his heir Alexei or through OTMA, but prefably Alexei who was the heir to the Imperial throne!!! Maria Vladimirovna or any other Member of the Romanov family should not be able to claim that throne!!! It should be restricted to them and reserved for only Nicholas II's descendants in which I know there are some out there!! Laugh at me and call me crazy all you want, their is a possibility and there is hope!! I know Nicholas II has a grandson who should be the next TSAR!!! I' am studying all Romanov claimants and hopefully I can find the truth and find out who the real Alexei, Anastasia, and the other Imperial children really are!!

Offline Matjlav

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #304 on: August 08, 2005, 09:27:01 PM »
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When Vladimir Kyrilovich was born, he was simply one of many great grandsons of Emperor Aleksander II, entitled to the style of Highness and the title of Prince of the Imperial Blood.

After Nicholas II, Aleksei and Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich were executed the following year Vladimir's status changed from Prince of the Imperial Blood to Heir of the Head of the Imperial Russian House. In acknowledgement of this change of stautus,Vladimir's father HIH Grand Duke Kyril Vladimirovich of Russia (de jure Emperor of Russia) granted him the style of Imperial Highness and the title of Grand Duke.

Upon the death of Grand Duke Kyril, Grand Duke Vladimir became the Head of the Imperial House of Russia, a status which was recognised by many if not most of the pre-1917 members of the Imperial Family including GD Boris, GD Andrew, GD Dimitri Pavlovich and other Imperial and Royal Houses.

Grand Duke Vladimir granted the style of Imperial Highness and title of Grand Duchess to his only child Maria Vladimirovna. When it was quite apparent that there would be no more male Romanov children produced from equal marriages as required by the Fundemental Law, Grand Duke Vladimir appointed his daughter the caretaker of the Throne.

HIH GD Maria Vladimirovna of course made an equal marriage with a Hohenzollern prince and has issue, one son, HIH Grand Duke George.

DAP


Grand Duke Vladimir didn't "appoint" Maria as heiress; she was the rightful heir according to the Fundamental law, which states that in the extinction of the male line, the closest female relative to the last Tsar (in the current case, the last Head of the House) will inherit the throne.

However, you didn't mention that Grand Duke Vladimir's marriage to Her Illustrious Highness Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhransky is considered morganatic by many, which would disqualify Maria from the throne. If one considers Vladimir's marriage morganatic, the rightful heir would be His Serene Highness Fürst Andreas zu Leiningen, the grandson of Maria's aunt. But, no one seems to ever mention him, because most people who consider the marriage morganatic are supporters of Nicholas Romanov. I'm personally a supporter of Maria, because though Vladimir's marriage was blatantly morganatic, he was the Head at the time and he approved the marriage.

Quote

Neither Olga nor her husband (unless she married a dynast in his own right) would have been able to succeed because Russia had a semi-Salic succession law. As of 1917, the order of succession to Nicholas was:

1. HIH The Tsesarevich Alexei Nikolievich
2. HIH Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
3. HIH Grand Duke Kiril Vladimirovich
4. HIH Prince Vladimir Kirilovich (b. 1917)
5. HIH Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich
6. HIH Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich
7. HIH Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich


Well, Olga could have succeeded, it just wouldn't be very likely. If all the above people died childless before Nicholas II, and Olga was still living, she would succeed as Empress.

However, let's say that Grand Duke Kirill were to ascend. Because the rule is the closest female relative to the last Tsar, not the most senior female relative, Olga would be knocked much further down in the order of succession because there were many female relatives closer to Kirill than Olga.

I will show the succession lists including the "hidden" part during the theoretical reign (in 1917) of Nicholas II.

Nicholas II (or Alexei if you remove #1)

1. HIH The Tsesarevich Alexei Nikolievich
2. HIH Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
3. HIH Grand Duke Kiril Vladimirovich
4. HIH Prince Vladimir Kirilovich
5. HIH Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich
6. HIH Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich
7. HIH Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich
8. HIH Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna

Kirill (or Vladimir if you remove #1)

(Nicholas II)
(Alexei)
1. HIH Prince Vladimir Kirilovich
2. HIH Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich
3. HIH Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich
4. HIH Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich
5. HIH Grand Duchess Maria Kirillovna
6. HIH Grand Duchess Kira Kirillovna
7. HIH Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna
8. HIH Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna
9. HIH Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna
10. HIH Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna

Notice that Olga drops from 8-10. But what looks more significant is that with no new births, five people are placed in front of Olga on the line of succession!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Matjlav »

David_Pritchard

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #305 on: August 08, 2005, 10:50:30 PM »
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However, you didn't mention that Grand Duke Vladimir's marriage to Her Illustrious Highness Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhransky is considered morganatic by many, which would disqualify Maria from the throne. If one considers Vladimir's marriage morganatic, the rightful heir would be His Serene Highness Fürst Andreas zu Leiningen, the grandson of Maria's aunt. But, no one seems to ever mention him, because most people who consider the marriage morganatic are supporters of Nicholas Romanov. I'm personally a supporter of Maria, because though Vladimir's marriage was blatantly morganatic, he was the Head at the time and he approved the marriage.
quote]

What many may say about the marriage of GD Vladimir and GDss Leonida has no bearing on the equality of the marriage as they were not the Head of the Imperial House in 1948. The Fundemental Laws do not specify that the Head of the Imperial House must make an equal marriage while he is the Head of the Imperial House. GD Vladimir became the Head of the House in 1938 and married in 1948.

The present line of succession is:

1. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia
2. Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich of Russia
3. Fürst Andreas zu Leiningen
4. Prince Ferdinand Heinrich zu Leiningen
5. Prince Hermann Ernst zu Leiningen
6. Prince Boris zu Leiningen
(if eqaul marriage is not required then insert the two sons of Prince Boris, Nicholas and Karl, here.)
7. Prince Hermann Fredrick zu Leiningen

David


Offline Matjlav

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #306 on: August 09, 2005, 10:40:56 AM »
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What many may say about the marriage of GD Vladimir and GDss Leonida has no bearing on the equality of the marriage as they were not the Head of the Imperial House in 1948. The Fundemental Laws do not specify that the Head of the Imperial House must make an equal marriage while he is the Head of the Imperial House.


Though a Head of the House can make a morganatic marriage and remain Head, no children from that marriage have rights to succession. Regardless, he did approve the marriage and the Head's word is final. However, one can't help but wonder if he would have made the same decision if he had a group of ministers advising him to do otherwise.

Quote
1. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia
2. Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich of Russia
3. Fürst Andreas zu Leiningen
4. Prince Ferdinand Heinrich zu Leiningen
5. Prince Hermann Ernst zu Leiningen
6. Prince Boris zu Leiningen
(if eqaul marriage is not required then insert the two sons of Prince Boris, Nicholas and Karl, here.)
7. Prince Hermann Fredrick zu Leiningen


Technically, the only person in the line of succession is Grand Duke George. But if you include the rest, then you would include the sons of Prince Karl Boris. When the Throne must be inherited in the female line, any marriages considered morganatic by the former house of the heir are treated morganatically by the succession, and the opposite also applies. If this rule were not true, you wouldn't include Karl Boris in the line at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Matjlav »

Offline Angwen

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #307 on: August 13, 2005, 12:52:10 PM »
1.Do the Russian people want a monarchy?

2.Who is this George?What does he do for a living?Why does he want the throne?

3.In your opinion do you think the various military and political factions would like a monarchy?I say no.

I haven't read all 13 pages yet.

Offline Matjlav

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?.
« Reply #308 on: August 13, 2005, 08:11:16 PM »
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1.Do the Russian people want a monarchy?


The majority of them don't.

Quote
2.Who is this George?What does he do for a living?Why does he want the throne?


George is the heir-apparent to Maria Vladimirovna, a claimant to the Russian throne. I don't know what he does for a living. He wants the throne because he believes that he (and his mother) are the rightful heirs.

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3.In your opinion do you think the various military and political factions would like a monarchy?I say no.


No, just like the rest of Russia.

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #309 on: May 19, 2007, 01:09:57 AM »
This is just my opinion, but anyone descended from the Grand Duke Kyril is no heir to anything as far as I'm concerned. He betrayed Nicholas in support of the Revolution. This automatically disqualifies him, according to the laws of succession. Marie Feodrovna never would recognize him and was outraged at him declaring himself 'Tsar in exile'. It's funny to see how while in exile he showed great remorse for Nicky and his family. I don't recall who said it, but I agree with whoever said, "If the Tsar were alive, they would do their best to kill him again."

TheAce1918

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #310 on: May 19, 2007, 05:47:43 PM »
"If the Tsar were alive, they would do their best to kill him again."

True.  But the Tsarist form of government hasn't been around in over 70 years.  Many Russians are still trying to acclimate from the Soviet ways of life.
Isn't it also true that if Stalin or the rest of the Soviet government were still around in Moscow, they would do their best to disobey them again, as well?

Offline Kurt Steiner

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #311 on: June 25, 2007, 03:04:19 PM »
I'm sorry to recuperate such an old thread, but, after reading the 21 previous pages and doing some kind of research, I must confess I'm absolutely lost about the situation right now in the order of succession. So, if it's not too much, can anyone give me a biref glimpse of who is the heir now?

Thanks in advance.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #312 on: June 26, 2007, 01:08:05 AM »
I'm sorry to recuperate such an old thread, but, after reading the 21 previous pages and doing some kind of research, I must confess I'm absolutely lost about the situation right now in the order of succession. So, if it's not too much, can anyone give me a biref glimpse of who is the heir now?

Thanks in advance.

The issue of the Russian succession is really not one which can be discussed with any brevity. However, I will try to give you a brief sketch:

1. No Heir: there are many who believe the throne died with Nicholas II and that the monarchy is no more, there is no heir, no dynasty, only a Romanov family.

2. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: many believe that the Fundamental Law in place in 1917 is still in effect for the dynasty and that with the extinction of the male dynastic line in the 1990's, that Vladimir Kirilovich's daughter, Maria (b. 1953) is heir. MV has a son, George Michaelovich, which in the short term, ensures the continuation of the line.

3. Romanov Family Association: according to the RFA, the dynasty is no more, but the family association has an order of succession, and they promote various charitable projects in Russia. The current head of the RFA is Prince Nicholas Romanovich. The majority of the descendants of Nicholas I belong to the RFA.

These three comprise the majority of support for "an heir". However, there is at least one more.

By male primogeniture, the heir of the Romanovs is a gentleman from Connecticut by the name of Tim Ilyinsky. In late 1916, Tim's grandfather, the Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, reportedly participated in the murder of Rasputin. Disgusted by his actions, the Tsar banished his young cousin, thus saving his life during the Revolution which followed mere weeks later.

As all of Dmitri's male cousins were killed off or died, he married in the 1920's and fathered one child, a son, Prince Paul Ilyinsky. A few years before his father's death, the grand duke sent his son to the US and hopefully safety. Paul Ilyinsky lived in the US the rest of his life, until his death a few years ago - he had become the Furst of the House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov upon the death of his cousin, Prince Vladimir Kirilovich, in the early 1990's. With Prince Paul's death, his oldest son, Tim (Dmitri), became the Furst and is thus regarded as the best heir.

Offline Kurt Steiner

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #313 on: June 26, 2007, 02:48:12 AM »
Thank you very much, Lisa!

Offline sydguy71

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #314 on: July 09, 2007, 06:39:31 AM »
Lisa,
Thanks. You have simplified it amazingly well for me to.
Brett