Author Topic: Questions about Alexandra's Name?  (Read 82612 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2010, 10:52:17 PM »
Maybe you're right. I'm not a Middle-Age expert, but I was surprised about what you've said since I've read some sources in old French (which could be pretty different from classic one) and never find the name "Alix". Much less Alison. The only thing I can do, not being an expert is to agree that the ending "son" is a French diminutive . I never read anything about any "Alison" in French history, but of curse it could be. I tend to accept what you are saying about "Alix" name issue. Still, I'm unsure.

My question now is: why did Father Andrew state a so false thing in his own web? I can certainly write wrong data about an issue if I'm not an expert in it, but I should always said that "I believe" a thins is that way and not another. I should never "assure" such thing, and much less if I have a public site or blog.Other persons could repeat what I wrote and the mistake could be generallized. An internet website must NEVER state things that are or could be fake. In a discussion thread, like this one, we may discuss about being or not right..but if you hace a website with information for others, it's clear that you must have dne some research before posting. Just a thought...And again, if you are right (most likely, you are) you must write to father Andrew to change these mistakes in his web. I believed that he really knows what he was talking about.

I'm amazed about how much you seems to know about ancient names...

RealAnastasia.

 

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #166 on: May 07, 2010, 09:56:49 PM »
Maybe you're right. I'm not a Middle-Age expert, but I was surprised about what you've said since I've read some sources in old French (which could be pretty different from classic one) and never find the name "Alix". Much less Alison. The only thing I can do, not being an expert is to agree that the ending "son" is a French diminutive . I never read anything about any "Alison" in French history, but of curse it could be.

It seems Alison was Norman or Anglo French and as such mostly used in Britain. The name was first recorded in Scotland in the 12th century, according to Wikipedia. That explains its absence from the French sources. I think you have to read quite widely (or focused on some people) to come across any Alixes in Old French sources. Or perhaps it only appears in Latin sources.

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My question now is: why did Father Andrew state a so false thing in his own web? I can certainly write wrong data about an issue if I'm not an expert in it, but I should always said that "I believe" a thins is that way and not another. I should never "assure" such thing, and much less if I have a public site or blog.Other persons could repeat what I wrote and the mistake could be generallized. An internet website must NEVER state things that are or could be fake. In a discussion thread, like this one, we may discuss about being or not right..but if you hace a website with information for others, it's clear that you must have dne some research before posting. Just a thought..

Sadly, the World Wide Web is full of misleading and wrong information. That's the backside to the almost unlimited liberty of the web.
That's why one must always be critical to what one reads. People who claim "It's true, because it says so on www.meaningsofthecutestbabynames.com" are as naïve and more ridiculous than people who claim "It's true, because the Bible says so." And often, people who operate what-does-my-name-mean services have a a relaxed attitude to what is realistically plausible that is similar to Anna Anderson or medieval royal genealogists. They'll trace it back to the Last Tsar or Alexander the Great no matter how implausible it seems. :-)

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And again, if you are right (most likely, you are) you must write to father Andrew to change these mistakes in his web. I believed that he really knows what he was talking about.
I already have.

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I'm amazed about how much you seems to know about ancient names...
Thank you! I just love etymology. I am also impressed if you read Old French :-)
But don't think I wrote all this out of the top of my head. I did comparative research along the way.

The thing with etymology of names is that one can seldom find water-tight proof of a name's etymology. The people who first start using it usually don't write down what they had derived it from. (Alice of Hesse writing why she spelled Alix's name as she did is therefore a rare goodie, but of course we would have loved to know where she had found that spelling. Most likely she had gotten it from medieval French royal history, but we can't say for sure.)

Often one can only argue that this name evolving from that name is just highly plausible, given the linguistic laws and processes in work at the time and the inter-cultural contacts that were in existence at the time.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:16:55 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #167 on: May 07, 2010, 10:47:26 PM »
Quote
My question now is: why did Father Andrew state a so false thing in his own web? I can certainly write wrong data about an issue if I'm not an expert in it, but I should always said that "I believe" a thins is that way and not another. I should never "assure" such thing, and much less if I have a public site or blog.Other persons could repeat what I wrote and the mistake could be generallized. An internet website must NEVER state things that are or could be fake. In a discussion thread, like this one, we may discuss about being or not right..but if you hace a website with information for others, it's clear that you must have dne some research before posting. Just a thought..

Sadly, the World Wide Web is full of misleading and wrong information. That's the backside to the almost unlimited liberty of the web.
That's why one must always be critical to what one reads. People who claim "It's true, because it says so on www.meaningsofthecutestbabynames.com" are as naïve and more ridiculous than people who claim "It's true, because the Bible says so."

A thought that struck me: Wikipedia gets a lot of criticism as a not reliable source. And yes, for serious matters it isn't, being much inferior in quality to digitalized encyclopædias, online academic journals etc. which you often have to pay or be a member to access.

But people forget that much-maligned Wikipedia is a lot more reliable than sites made by single or very few persons, like Father Andrew's site or Cynthia's International Database of Popular Arizona Baby Names. They have no peer review, which of course is what Wikipedia is all about. And if you think what you read in the English Wikipedia version doesn't sound quite right, you can check out the French, Spanish, German, Russian etc. versions to compare. It really is a source of information with several checks and balances, as long as you don't take it at face value as the "Biblical truth" (sic!) :-)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:53:33 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2010, 06:43:58 PM »
Analogue, but with the completely opposite evolution to Alis→Alix, is the name Bruxelles, originally something like /bruoc-sella/, hermitage in the marsh, which came to be written with a x in French and today the (spelling) pronunciation /bʁyksɛl/ also exists along with the more common /bʁysɛl/.  
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:51:07 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #169 on: October 31, 2010, 01:37:24 AM »
Lol, was Alix's earliest proven matrilineal ancestress actually an Alix / Adelaide / Adelheidis: The 12th-century Adélaïde de Béziers, by marriage Countess of Forcalquier, possibly born as a member of the House of Trencavel, Viscounts of Albi, Béziers, Carcasonne etc.?

GrandDuchessAndrea

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #170 on: October 31, 2010, 02:47:42 PM »
Well, Alix's father's full name was "Fredrich Wilhelm Ludwig Karl" so that's where they got the Feodrovna from.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #171 on: October 31, 2010, 03:54:53 PM »
Well, Alix's father's full name was "Fredrich Wilhelm Ludwig Karl" so that's where they got the Feodrovna from.

Not quite correct. Фёдор is the Russian form of Theodor (meaning "gift of God" in the original Greek), not of Friedrich. Her mother-in-law was also a Feodorovna even though her father only had the single first name Christian. Even though non-Orthodox people called some form of Friedrich (like yours truly) or being the children of a Friedrich often adopted the name Feodor or patronymic Feodorovich / Feodorovna due to the phonological similarity (much like an Adelaide / Adelheid / Alice or Alix might adopt the name Alexandra), the assigining of patronymics to imperial imperial consort converts followed other, more arbitrary rules. (Allegedly NII wanted Alix to be Alexandra Feodorovna, so that she might have the same name as the empress of the first Emperor Nicholas, Charlotte of Prussia, whose father was a Friedrich Wilhelm.)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 04:10:13 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

matushka

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #172 on: November 01, 2010, 07:52:01 AM »
Just read this interesting thread. Just my modest contribution: theterminaison "on" is quite common in french as an old diminutive. Feminine names: Lise-Lison, Louise-Louison, Claire-Clairon, Suzanne-Suzon, Françoise-Fanchon, Madeleine-Madelon, the little name Ninon... Same with words: enfant, giving the old enfançon. So Alison can really be an old french form of Alice.
And a question: how was Alexandra Fedorovna's name pronounced by her relatives: Aliss or Aliks? The question is also not clear for russian who are writing Аликс, принцесса дармштадсткая as well as принцесса Алиса. Do we know for sure, for example from the testimony of people who knew her and transmetted the story to their relatives?

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #173 on: November 01, 2010, 09:39:23 AM »
And a question: how was Alexandra Fedorovna's name pronounced by her relatives: Aliss or Aliks?
/Aliks/. (If not, her nickname Alicky wouldn't make sense.)