Author Topic: Olga & Tatiana's opposing sentiments about evil  (Read 11178 times)

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tatianolishka_1

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Olga & Tatiana's opposing sentiments about evil
« on: November 04, 2006, 10:11:07 AM »
I was reading some of Olga and Tatiana's letters when I stumbled upon this. Tatiana wrote:

"One has to struggle much because the return for good is evil, and evil reigns."

But we all know Olga's famous words, "It is not evil which conquers evil, but only love..."

The two girls seemed to have opposing ideas about evil. What do you think happened?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 03:30:32 PM by Sarushka »

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2006, 04:28:24 PM »
I was reading some of Olga and Tatiana's letters when I stumbled upon this. Tatiana wrote:

"One has to struggle much because the return for good is evil, and evil reigns."
I think it's difficult to know for certain how Tatiana felt without further context. It could simply mean that Tatiana realized every good deed is not necessarily rewarded with good in return. If the letter was written during the revolution, "evil reigns" might be a reference to her surroundings at that particular moment, and not how she felt overall about the balance between good and evil in the world at large. Given Tatiana's faith, I find it hard to believe that she would be so overtly pessimistic. But I also think it's impossible to speculate with any degree of accuracy without further information. Do you have a date for that letter, or a more complete excerpt we can examine?

But we all know Olga's famous words, "It is not evil which conquers evil, but only love..."
Actually, Olga was quoting Nicholas II when she wrote that -- I believe the full quote begins "Father asks us to remember..." But the fact that Olga wrote down her father's words does imply that she agreed with the sentiment.  ;)

Offline Lanie

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2006, 04:41:56 PM »
Perhaps Tatiana was more of the, uh, gloom and doom type?  I know Alexandra was more of that in her spirituality, or so it seemed--that everyone who was a Christian must struggle against all the evil in the world.

kelly_anne_wright

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 07:39:26 PM »
Just different outlooks on life, I would suppose. Tatiana was probably more fatalistic than Olga, since Tatiana emulated her mother, and Olga her father.

Offline Holly

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 07:54:29 PM »
I agree with Lanie. Tatiana emulated her mother and she seemed to have the idea that a Christian must suffer with piety and endure spite and slander for their faith and in the end they will be rewarded for their harships. Olga was almost the opposite I think, and believed that no matter what, her faith would save her from anything.
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 10:47:31 PM »
But we all know Olga's famous words, "It is not evil which conquers evil, but only love..."
Here's the full quote in Russian:
Отец просит передать всем тем, кто Ему остался предан, и тем, на кого они могут иметь влияние, чтобы они не мстили за Него, так как Он всех простил и за всех молится, и чтобы не мстили за себя, и чтобы помнили, что то зло, которое сейчас в мире, будет еще сильнее, но что не зло победит, а только любовь...

I can't for the life of me find out WHEN she wrote that, or WHO she was writing to. Anybody know for sure? I know I read it in English someplace, but I just can't remember where... :P

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2006, 11:09:19 PM »
I imagine that Tatiana could think differently than Olga. The fact they were sister doesn't mean they must think exactly alike. Olga and Tatiana were very different from each other. And yes...Tatiana was much more like her mother than Olga.

RealAnastasia.

tatianolishka_1

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 09:51:13 AM »
I think it's difficult to know for certain how Tatiana felt without further context. It could simply mean that Tatiana realized every good deed is not necessarily rewarded with good in return. If the letter was written during the revolution, "evil reigns" might be a reference to her surroundings at that particular moment, and not how she felt overall about the balance between good and evil in the world at large. Given Tatiana's faith, I find it hard to believe that she would be so overtly pessimistic. But I also think it's impossible to speculate with any degree of accuracy without further information. Do you have a date for that letter, or a more complete excerpt we can examine?

Sorry, I don't.  :(

I can't for the life of me find out WHEN she wrote that, or WHO she was writing to. Anybody know for sure? I know I read it in English someplace, but I just can't remember where... :P

I think I read somewhere she was writing this in 1917 (wild guess). No clue who she was writing to.

Janet_W.

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 02:08:31 PM »
I have read--and given what we know of Olga and Tatiana, think it true--that Tatiana tended to accept, whereas Olga tended to question. For example, notations exist in Tatiana's hand which are reiterations of Rasputin homilies. It is my opinion that Tatiana was a born pleaser and placater who accepted authority and status quo and had limited interest in anything beyond the immediate. She was bright, practical, efficient, and accomplished, but--in my opinion--without imagination. I would even question whether she fully explored that which she copied; I think she often wrote things down as a child might write, 50 times on the blackboard, something that had been ordered by the teacher. 

Olga, on the other hand, was emotional and sometimes indiscreet, but also a critical thinker who, from childhood, took an interest in what we would call "The Big Picture." It is my opinion that whether the words she wrote were hers or transcribed from another source, she vetted them intellectually before committing them to paper.

Oddly enough, it seems Olga was closest to her father, who in my opinion was not much of a critical thinker. Tatiana, on the other hand, devoted herself unquestioningly to Alexandra, who admittedly had become rigid in her thinking but earlier in life had grappled with philosophical issues, not the least of which was whether she could morally, ethically and spiritually change religions in order to marry the man to whom she felt physically attracted.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 06:31:35 PM »
Well, the fact that Olga copied those words does indicate agreement with them. They are more often credited to her than to her father, perhaps because of the fact they seem more like something she would say. But Nicholas wasn't just what people would think sometimes. So, they weren't Olga's words, but she agreed. Olga did think of things very deeply, and in a very wise way. She always was right about things that she thought about, and reading her words or reading of them, you agree with her, and think she had a very great mind.

Tatiana has never had as much of a reputation as a thinker, because she was not so. She was more than the way she acted, (which was often rather bland) would suggest, but she wasn't as intellectual or as thoughtful as Olga. She was more practical, although she was intelligent. She seems more accepting than questioning, and she may have just been practical if she wrote those words or was quoting those words. She may just have taken the practical view rather than the more thoughtful, but harder to prove truth of the words of Nicholas as quoted by Olga.

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 09:07:37 PM »
Both statements seem to me to say similar things. Tatiana is probably writing about the struggle which all Orthodox Christians would be aware of - the aesthetic struggle by which we take Heaven, and that without forcing ourselves it is so easy to sink into worldliness, slothfulness etc. We have to fight, and fight hard for ourselves. Olga is approaching it from the angle that while evil is strong, ultimately it falls as a house divided - love conquers all. Love is what the Christian is struggling for and because of.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2006, 11:16:49 PM »
You left me without words, Georgiy. You said it so wonderfully. It could be two different views of the same thing, or better, the same thought view from different angles.

And I share completely your appreciations about Olga and Tatiana, Janet_W

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Janet_W.

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2006, 01:29:48 AM »
Oops! I realize now that I wasn't really answering the question. But I second you, RealAnstasia--Georgiy has done so, simply and without any grandstanding. (And next time I'll pay better attention!)

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2006, 08:27:32 AM »
You are right, if you think about these statements  of Olga's and Tatiana's do say more things alike than they do apart.. I think maybe you were not answering the question, Janet W, but I still really enjoyed your post. I think sometimes getting a bit off topic is ok, essentially, as long as the speculation offered is relevant, and it seems to be in this case. I do wonder if these were Tatiana's words or if she was quoting somebody, maybe Alexandra? They seem a bit deep for Tatiana, but then again, it is easy to judge her personality.

Janet_W.

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Re: Opposing Statements
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2006, 01:47:18 PM »
Hi Imperial Angel--

Well, as has been pointed out, Olga's statement in this thread is actually a quote from her father during their period of imprisonment--a quote which she obviously found meaningful, applicable, and comforting. So far, however, the statement in Tatiana's handwriting lacks definitive attribution as to both its date and origin.

As we know, a common learning method--even today, but more so in previous centuries--was to have students transcribe that which they were supposed to learn.

I recall reading in one of the larger pictoral books--someone out there will have to help me with the title-- that Tatiana kept a notebook of Rasputin's sayings. Whether the quote referenced in this thread is one of those quotes I do not know. However, such writings would please Alexandra, and Tatiana was the daughter most likely to understand and follow through on what would please her mother. I wouldn't doubt that Tatiana believed what she wrote, but I think hers was a face value acceptance of whatever homilies, religious precepts, etc. came from her mother and whomever her mother admired.

On the other hand Olga, whose specialty was poetry, understood the weight of even a single word, as well as how these single words impacted other words--intellectually and emotionally--due to factors such as placement, meter and sound. That is why I say it is very likely Olga was discriminating when it came to putting pen to paper.   

But again  ;^)  I do think Georgiy has hit upon the correct answer to the question!