Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?

[Jmentanko]

I can't see Felix ever shutting his sexuality in a closet, nevermind becoming "closeted."  I don't know, but he always seemed to me to be quite confident and open minded. Admirable qualities!  

[Martyn]

Once again, people in the 21st century are attempting to force historical figures into modern perspectives without examing the actual views and perspectives of the times.  At the turn of the 19th to 20th century, there was no such notion of a homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual person.  It was quite common for married couples to have children together and have "discrete liasons" outside of marriage, with persons of either sex. The film "Maurice" shows a rather accurate portrayel for example.

Do some reading on the subject and you will begin to see that there was much greater "fluidity" for lack of a better term, of sexuality at the time.

Who are you aiming this remark at?  I think that I was trying to suggest that Felix's world was one that is perhaps beyond our comprehension.  Certainly I am not trying to force my definitions onto him.
Is it really so wrong for people to look back with our knowledge and values and try to comprehend what made him tick anyway?  I think that I made it quite clear that Felix was quite simply Felix, who defies all labelling......

[Valmont]

I agree Martyn,  He was just Felix...
On the other hand, that theory about Rasputin blackmailing Felix,  is hilarious, at leat to me.  A lot of People knew Felix was  a Cross dresser, even his family, and  that, among other things was   the reason why Sandro and Xenia did not want, at the beggining,  their precious Irina marring this "Character"...besides, based on Felix personality, I do not think he would care much what the press said...  The IF??.. well, that is another story...

Arturo Vega-Llausás

[Forum Admin]

Who are you aiming this remark at?  I think that I was trying to suggest that Felix's world was one that is perhaps beyond our comprehension.  Certainly I am not trying to force my definitions onto him.
Is it really so wrong for people to look back with our knowledge and values and try to comprehend what made him tick anyway?  I think that I made it quite clear that Felix was quite simply Felix, who defies all labelling......

Martyn, relax. I was not referencing you at all, rather the discussion about "out of the closet" and blackmail...

FA

[Martyn]

Sorry.  Very grumpy when I posted.  Profuse apologies.

[Reed]

If I remember correctly we had a similar discussion on Felix's relationship with GD Dimitri.  I agree Felix defies classification.  He enjoyed life to the fullest and with his money was able to do so...even after the revolution.  The idea that Rasputin was blackmailing him doesn't seem credible, simply because of the fact that everyone seemed to know what he was doing anyway.  I think I would go more with the idea that he was spurned by Rasputin.  But....who knows!!  The life he experienced would be different because of the times and culture....coming out of the closet meant that you went in to get your coat.....that is, if you didn't have a servant to fetch it for you.  I still say he is one of the most fascinating individuals of the period.  What made him tick, we can only conjecture.  But isn't fun doing it!!!!

[Janet_W.]

Hmm . . . wouldn't "coming out of the closet" meant you had just used the facilities?  

[Penny_Wilson]

Once again, people in the 21st century are attempting to force historical figures into modern perspectives without examing the actual views and perspectives of the times.  At the turn of the 19th to 20th century, there was no such notion of a homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual person....

Umm.  Anyone recall Oscar Wilde?  

But seriously -- according to Theo Aronson in "Prince Eddy and the Homosexual Underworld," the word "homosexual" was coined by a Hungarian doctor in 1869, and enjoyed a wide (and obviously understood) usage in London society as early as the 1880s.  So, deferring to Mr Aronson's research, I think we must question the assertion that "there was no such notion of a homosexual person" at the turn of the last century.  

Additionally, the children's author, Noel Streatfeild, encountered several open and acknowledged lesbian households in London when she arrived there in 1915 to commence her war-time work in the theater. (Angela Bull's biography of Streatfeild -- I forget what it's called...)

[Martyn]

Thanks for that Penny - very illuminating.  I still take issue with the assumption that we are trying to impose our definitions and values on a different era; your comments have helped to show that the concept of homosexuality was not entirely unknown.

[DOMOVOII]

Umm.  Anyone recall Oscar Wilde?  

Oscar had a devoted wife called Constance..... what does this clarify? Two sons too.... which contrevenes the notion of the modern gay man.

Perhaps what's confused the issue is that although the Victorians may have had a brave new word for the  "situation", in effect, it was really just a classification; in a social context there was no homosexuality...because it was against the law, for many( the Code Napoleonin France  granted certain allowances and Frederik the Gt, also; "as long as it didn't scare the horses"!?!) and because it defied religious teachings .

Yes "relations"occurred  the within same sex, but beyond that no prospect of a modern "partner-ing" situation. (Living together in a state of union protected under and by law.)

Go back to the start of the question and insert "open" instead of closetted. No is the simple answer. Was he closeted...no is the answer....

If you can't be out and open as a gay man, you can't be closeted either. To my mind, a closet exists only in a society where homosexuals can live openly. Only when Gays and Lesbians are able to choose not to live in fear or shame can other's choose not to live that way.

Besides, Felix pleased himself....many gay men would find the idea of dressing in women's clothing abhorrent, and a love of fine things, though highly attentuated in Gay men particularly is by no means a distinguishing feature... Style, drama, flair the same applies, what defines a gay man is his sexuality, not his sensibilties.

[Reed]

"Besides, Felix pleased himself....many gay men would find the idea of dressing in women's clothing abhorrent, and a love of fine things, though highly attentuated in Gay men particularly is by no means a distinguishing feature... Style, drama, flair the same applies, what defines a gay man is his sexuality, not his sensibilties. "

Well said DOMOVOII!!

[DOMOVOII]

Thanks... but what I should have said was; a gay man is defined by his sexual identity.

Felix, as far as I have read, did not identify himself as a homosexual or with having "leanings", or having had many experiences to suggest positively otherwise. Many young people have a curiousity towards members of their own sex; a "phase" --which is the very most that could ever be attributed to Felix, and even then with no real certainty.

[Penny_Wilson]

... in a social context there was no homosexuality...because it was against the law...

With respect, I disagree.  

The law is an artificial limit set on human nature.  It's necessary, of course, but it doesn't nullify what's already there.  Homosexuality absolutely existed in society, however "underground" it might have been.  The law and other artificial social conventions forced it there -- but these men still existed, and still absolutely were what they were.  It's genetic, not a choice -- they couldn't stop being homosexual any more than I could stop being white.  Sure, I could get a tan, and a Victorian gay man could get a wife -- but we're still respectively white and gay underneath the artiface.

I am so very hesitant to rob these men -- often very brave in the face of their society's norms -- of their identity by accepting the claim that they couldn't have existed because they didn't have our modern verbiage or "enlightened" laws.

[Penny_Wilson]

Felix, as far as I have read, did not identify himself as a homosexual or with having "leanings", or having had many experiences to suggest positively otherwise. Many young people have a curiousity towards members of their own sex; a "phase" --which is the very most that could ever be attributed to Felix, and even then with no real certainty.

I'm not dog-piling on you, Domovoii!  Just another interesting comment to add my two cents to...  

I can't recall hearing or reading of Felix ever referring to himself as "homosexual" or any other similar word -- and I'm not sure that he ever would have thought of "describing" himself anyway.  He lived in a non-Oprahfied time, and belonged to a class that didn't think it necessary to explain themselves for the most part.

But Yusupov's "phase" at least lasted until the late 1950s or early 1960s -- I know one man who knew him then and recalled VERY overt verbal and physical advances from the elderly Felix almost every time he visited him.  

[Johnny]

Besides, Felix pleased himself....many gay men would find the idea of dressing in women's clothing abhorrent, and a love of fine things, though highly attentuated in Gay men particularly is by no means a distinguishing feature... Style, drama, flair the same applies, what defines a gay man is his sexuality, not his sensibilties.

Moreover, there are many heterosexual men who are into crossdressing. In fact crossdressing and sexual orientation are not exactly related. I know of a rather well known musician (I will not give his/her name) who was born a man, married to a woman, then had a sex-change becoming a woman, but keeping the genetically heterosexual orientation, therefore becoming a lesbian. I also heard of couple other similar cases.