Author Topic: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation  (Read 13186 times)

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Offline Tim

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Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« on: November 18, 2006, 11:45:06 PM »
The Russian state has been ordered to consider declaring the murder in 1918 of the country's last tsar a "political crime", a move that paves the way for the rehabilitation of Nicholas II.

The link to the article in The Independant is below:-

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article1987630.ece

I'd be intersted in the views of posters on this issue

Offline Belochka

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2006, 03:37:15 AM »
The Moscow Court in actual fact ruled that the petition filed by Mariya Vladimirovna needs to be considered before a Court.

The decision that was handed down can not be considered to pave the way towards any declaration.

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Offline Mexjames

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2008, 10:53:30 AM »
This is interesting news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3115053/Russia-exonerates-Tsar-Nicholas-II.html

Finally Russia recognized that the Tsar and his family were victims of political repression, a fact that we all know.

What are the implications going to be?

Note: I couldn't think of another forum where to put this; if it doesn't belong here please accept an apology.

Offline bkohatl

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 09:32:53 PM »
I can remember as child of nine watching TV and listening to the tragedy of Civil rights workers Michael Schwerner, James Chaney, and Andrew Goodman. These young men disappeared at approximately 10:00 p.m., Sunday, June 21, 1964. It turned out that they were tortured and murdered by the Philadelphia, Mississippi Police Department for registering African Americans to vote. That story became so ingrained in my character, that I never let an act of injustice pass unchallenged. I don't apologize for it either. A conscience is a heavy burden, but it allows me to sleep at night.
There are things about Nicholas II which should be condemned, anti-semitism(which was a very common point of view at the time and in the US South when I grew up. I can actually remember kids cheering when Martin Luther King was assassinated: it made me sick), poor military leadership(I agree with General Samsanov, General Rennenkampf should have been shot. Field Marshall Paul Von Hindenburg gives Rennenkampf credit for the German Victory at The "Tannenberg Forest".)  and an inability to see that it was the support of the peasants and working class who were the strongest supporters of the Monarchy and himself.
But "Nicky" had a great strength in his ability to appreciate the need for new and better military technology, Igor Sikorsky being the greatest example. I remember that Lincoln was a man who thought that technology would be harbinger of a more civilized warfare. He actually cared for the people, the soldiers who served under him. And anyone who has ever seen the pictures from the military hospital in Livadia, knows that Olga, Tatiana and Alexandra were real nurses who came to know the real horrors of war. The Romanovs were good people.
What I don't understand, is why in defending Nicholas II, no one trumpets his role in calling for the 1899 Geneva Conference? To me, this is one of the most profound moments in the history of mankind and there are two heroes in that story, Nicholas II and, later, Teddy Roosevelt. It was they who championed Rules of War, which outlawed poison gas, war crimes, torture and crimes against humanity. To me, that is Nicky's shinning moment. And the man he was in private life.
There is so much to say in Nicky's defense which has never been said, now is the time to say it. Hopefully, certain American political leaders will learn what it means to be civilized from their example.
I think in light of current events, Nicholas II give proof that the men and women behind the Geneva Conventions should be judged among the greatest heroes of the last century and maybe in all of history.  Nicholas II and Teddy Roosevelt were such men.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 09:58:29 AM by Alixz »

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 10:38:38 PM »
Reply/observations to "bkohatl" from the "other side of the Bench" : An interesting post.  In my honest opinion, I have some personal observations.  I see that this is your first post.  Do NOT expect to get much response along the lines of what you posit with this post.  Have you REALLY looked at the composition of the more recent respondents  (and topics) on this board?  MUCH of it is "cliquish" romanticized trivia about the adulation of the ill-fated Romanov family. Your entry is virtually loaded with overwhelming historical references (ranging from Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, Tannenburg Forrest, Russian generals (by the way, VON Rennenkampf) etc., etc. , that will be daunting and probably ignored by the "average" (whatever that is !) poster.   The "Geneva Conventions" MAY-----just MAY---- "ring a bell," probably in regards to the present-day armed conflict discussion/s.  Your first paragraph of personal experiences may tend to cause some to disregard the remainder of the post, as a personal expression ONLY (which indeed it is) and not as a raison d'etre for the remainder of your post.   Several months ago, a youngster here was whining that they had hoped for something more "intellectual" from the Board.  I will watch very closely to see if that person gives a response to your post------the chances are excellent that they will never read it.   Meanwhile, welcome and good luck!    Regards,   AP
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 09:59:18 AM by Alixz »

Offline LaDuchesse

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 08:41:59 AM »
Reply to post #1


This was really rather interesting, and I've actually learned a lot from it.  Nicholas II was a flawed individual like us all and not the best person for his position.  Though I find he did at least try to do some good and help his people.  Like you said he cared for the soldiers serving under him, but I feel that to an extent he had to care for the peasants as well.  But since I've never heard of the "Geneva Conventions" before  :-[ I'll have to look them up  :)  From what you've said so far that does seem to be his best moment, but surely there's been more.  Anyways, it's an interesting topic you've started, so thanks for posting it.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 10:09:19 AM by Alixz »

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 09:05:02 AM »

But since I've never heard of the "Geneva Conventions" before  :-[ I'll have to look them up  :)  From what you've said so far that does seem to be his best moment, but surely there's been more.

If I'm not wrong, there were two congresses, the first in 1899 (already correctly said by bkohatl), and the second one in 1907, both congresses were requested by Nicholas II for reduce armaments, there were representatives of many countries (United States, Great Britain, France...).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:00:11 AM by Alixz »

Offline LaDuchesse

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 09:28:42 AM »
Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:00:31 AM by Alixz »

Offline Helen

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 09:58:10 AM »
Did you perhaps mean the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899_and_1907))
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:00:55 AM by Alixz »
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 10:04:02 AM »
You're right, I mean exactly the Hague Conventions.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:01:22 AM by Alixz »

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 09:08:01 AM »
There is an interesting article I read a while ago, I believe in the Russian Review, studying the origin of the Hague.  Here the author indicates that after Nicholas broached the idea of the Hague, he and his advisors toyed with several political reasons that would make it advantageous for Russia to encourage a discussion of arms limitations. Once N began to investigate starting such a negotiating body, he found himself facing a great deal of opposition in his family (his mother and one uncle, I believe Alexei).  The concluding thesis of the article is that while the Hague was finally opened in part owing to political gains, there is no doubt that the founding premise of peace and negotiation initiated by Nicholas himself was an entirely benevolent impulse, and that the political maneuvering began later.  It is important to note that N moved forward with the Hague in spite of the opposition.  By the way, did you know that the Hague now monitors international adoption?  It sets rules and requires families with adopted children to file post-placement reports.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:01:42 AM by Alixz »

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 10:07:16 AM »
  By the way, did you know that the Hague now monitors international adoption?  It sets rules and requires families with adopted children to file post-placement reports.

I read it somewhere, and this is possible thanks to the brilliant idea of Nicholas II, one more reason to remember him with respect, since I'm a supporter of the international adoption.

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 10:08:26 AM »
In 1904 when the Russian Baltic Fleet was on its way to Port Arthur and its eventual defeat in the Straits of Tsushima, they accidentally fired on some British Fishing trawlers.

This incident was referred to the Hague for resolution.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3HwgF4Rl630C&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=dogger+bank+and+the+hague&source=bl&ots=feDKwLf-o7&sig=-yXyTEhUew7XzMhWyiDW6meeBLk&hl=en&ei=ZaceSqPLLNLgtgf197XsAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA403,M1

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 10:12:31 AM »
I believe that I read that on the eve of World War I, Nicholas II tried to refer the Sarajevo incident to the Hague for resolution.  I will do some research to find out where I read it.

But here is some information on the Hague Conferences:

Although Hague Conference of 1899 and 1907, failed to prevent the break out of World War I, the conference itself has great significance. The conference shows international efforts to protect peace from tensions and aggressions of the time. The Hague Conference called for organizations and peace conventions like Geneva Protocol to support humanity even in the midst of the war.
            However, we should clearly remember and see the original purpose of the conference: to keep peace around world. The assembly of nations did not help much to put a stop to increase of armaments nor tensions, showing the limitations of international treaties and warns of nominal conferences.


http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0910/pillow/pillow1.html

Offline Helen

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2009, 10:55:22 AM »
But here is some information on the Hague Conferences:
...
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0910/pillow/pillow1.html
Thank you, Alixz,  for the reference to this term paper.

An other article on Nicholas II and the first Hague Conference is "Nicholas II and the Call for the First Hague Conference" by Dan L. Morill in "The Journal of Modern History", Vol. 46, No. 2 (June 1974), pp. 296-313.

I believe that I read that on the eve of World War I, Nicholas II tried to refer the Sarajevo incident to the Hague for resolution. I will do some research to find out where I read it.
He did. According to Marc Ferro, "Nicholas called on Britain to take up a position, to summon the Hague Court or to demand an international conference." [Marc Ferro, Nicholas II - The Last of the Tsars, p. 152] And Elisabeth Heresch discusses a telegram sent to Wilhelm II in which Nicholas II suggested to let the Hague Court decide on the matter. Wilhelm II is said to have scribbled the following words in the margin of this telegram: "All das sind Phrasen! Was fur Unsinn!" [ Elisabeth Heresch, Nikolaus II. - Feigheit, Luege und Verrat, p. 185] The Empress herself also mentioned this telegram in an unpublished letter.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 11:08:17 AM by Helen »
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"