Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder

[lexi4]

I am not being sarcastic here so pleasedon't take it that way. Let's say they were executed somewhere else? What does that tell us? Does it matter? Please explain.

[helenazar]

small villages be it in Odessa....or Tifilis....

Bear, Odessa is not by any means a "small village", it is a large port city, one of the most cosmopolitan in Russia (or rather the Ukraine) - population 1.5 million. Tiflis is the capital of Georgia, hence not a "small village" either.

[AGRBear]

Yep Odessa is a large sea port city, etc. etc..

I should have said small villages "near" Odessa, etc. etc. and have gone back to my post and incerted the word "near".  Thanks for making me aware of this.

AGRBear  

[AGRBear]

I am not being sarcastic here so pleasedon't take it that way. Let's say they were executed somewhere else? What does that tell us? Does it matter? Please explain.

I think it's possible that  Yurovsky was  telling us  lies about the night of the 16/17th of July in the Ipatiev House.  I may be alone in this opinion, however,   I find that it is important to discover if he did and if he did, it's just important to find out why.

What does it matter?  I don't like being told lies and I'd like the truth of what happen to be known.  

The nine were found in the mass grave, so, they obviously didn't survive.  I guess to some, it doesn't matter what night they died. But it does to me.  If they were executed later, then all the reasons given why they killed Alexandra and the childrren by Yurovsky and later the CHEKA, Soviet Urals, communists and KGB were lies.  This would place them in even worst light, I think.

We don't know about the two missing.

How can we know and start looking in the right places for answers  if we can't untangle the lies from the truth of what happen that night???

For all we know, one of the girls may have survived.  Even Alexei may have survived up and into probably his twenties.

Now, remember, I don't think AA was Anastasia, nor do I think any claimant I'm familiar with have proven they are children of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

It's just I can't seem to get past all those drunken guards and all those people who were said to have been a part of the various buriels but  just handful of men have given testimonies, which, in fact,  differ in some of the key facts.

Am I "netpicking"?  I don't think I am.
Am I looking for the truth?  Yep.

AGRBear

[Annie]

Bear, I am eternally tired of you claiming you are looking for 'the truth' while calling most everything we already know 'lies'- so where will it end? And for the 85th time, what will it take to make something the 'truth' to you?

[AGRBear]

While Annie rests up for my "eternal" search for the truth, let me pull over some of the evidence which I found interesting:

I had to look up who Alexander Kirsta was and I had forgotten about him and how he was invovled in the investigation.

According to File On the Tsar p. 326 Summers and Mangold tell us that it was Kirsta, the Head of Military Control on 8 March 1919 and on 2 April 1919 takes the testimony of the nurse Mutnykh.   He backed this statement five others who were (1) Ivan Girschfeld, a German, (2) Sibiryev, local postal clerk, (3) Yegeniya Sokolova; (4) Glafyra Malysleva, who had a napkin from the royal family's "stuff",  (5) name unknown, listed as a patient from a local invalid hospital....

Mutnykh's story tells us, also,   she was not alone when she saw Alexandra and three of her daughters.  With her was Anna Kostina, the secretary to  Grigory Zinoviev.  [Note: she said three daughters, not four.]

This testimony,  let me note, again, wasn't until March and then again in April of 1919.  This was some seven and eight months after July 1918.  

Was side tracked on Mutnykh's story.

Back to Kirsta.

On page 323,  Summers and Mangold tell us that Kirsta was part of General Gaida investigation which was not part of Sokolov's.  Gaida was a member of the Ugolovny Rozysk  [CID = Criminal Investigation Division].....  Gaida didn't trust the Whites who quickly declared the Royal Family as being executed and were probably the source who were spreading the "rumors" about the daughters and Tsarina having been raped, etc. etc..   Gaida's collection did not include the White Army investigators collection.

If the Perm witnesses were part of some kind of conspiracy,  I wouldn't know.  Greg indicates this may have been the case.  But,  Gaida wasn't new at investigations.  And,  if you ask my opinion, until I'm given good reason to change my mind,  I think Gaida's data might  be more accurate than the Reds or the Whites about what happen to the Royal Family and the others.

Greg,  what do you have on Gaida and why is his data, in your opinion,  considered as being not as accurate as other investigators?

AGRBear

[lexi4]

Am I looking for the truth?  Yep.

AGRBear

Are you searching for truth or facts?

[helenazar]

Are you searching for truth or facts?

Shouldn't they be one and the same?  Sometimes I wonder if Bear realizes that...  

I guess it just depends on whose "truth" you're is searching for, eh Bear ?  

[AGRBear]

Shouldn't they be one and the same?  Sometimes I wonder if Bear realizes that...  

I guess it just depends on whose "truth" you're is searching for, eh Bear ?  

I have given you some facts, and, if you care to talk about them instead of Bear then let's talk about them. If you do not, I guess the facts are without challenges, therefore the facts from Summers and Mangold  I've mention will stand as true.

AGRBear

[Annie]

Oh please! Summers and Mangold stand as true? Sure, and aliens took Marilyn Monroe away and replaced her with an android too The family, other than Mikhail, was NOT in Perm. They were in Ekaterinburg, where they died. That's a historical fact. And once again, we can't all have our own 'truths' in cases where there is only one right answer. The truth is the truth, everything else was just incorrect guesses. (like File on the Tsar!)

[AGRBear]

Annie's  remark, "....aliens took Marilyn Monroe away and replaced her with an android."

Does this remark present a challenge to Summers and Mangold's findings?  I don't think they mentioned aliens, Mariyln Monroe or androids.  I am quite sure, Annie's remark has nothing to do with facts showing us that  these seven people, who gave testimony,  were lying about what they saw in Perm.  And, we know she certainly is NOT telling us the Summers and Mangold fabricated evidence.

Does anyone have proof these seven were lying or just speculations?

AGRBear

[Annie]

Sigh. How many times to I have to say it? No one was lying, however, there were rumors, many intentionally planted by the Bolsheviks to cover up the fact that Alix and the girls had been killed (and surely you do remember the Princesses of German blood story, it is well documented here. Perhaps FA can repost it) The family was NOT in Perm. This is silly. The family were killed in Ekaterinburg and buried in the forest. There is no way anyone would take them to another town, shoot them the next day, then dump them in the SAME hole! It is absolutely illogical and ridiculous. Can you produce proof that all accounts of the family being killed in Ekaterinburg on July 16 are lies? If not, I guess they must stand as true!

[AGRBear]

Sigh. How many times to I have to say it? No one was lying, however, there were rumors, many intentionally planted by the Bolsheviks to cover up the fact that Alix and the girls had been killed (and surely you do remember the Princesses of German blood story, it is well documented here. Perhaps FA can repost it) The family was NOT in Perm. This is silly. The family were killed in Ekaterinburg and buried in the forest. There is no way anyone would take them to another town, shoot them the next day, then dump them in the SAME hole! It is absolutely illogical and ridiculous. Can you produce proof that all accounts of the family being killed in Ekaterinburg on July 16 are lies? If not, I guess they must stand as true!

Annie:  >>No one was lying<<
Bear:  Okay

Annie:  >> however, there were rumors, many intentionally planted by the Bolsheviks to cover up the fact that Alix and the girls had been killed<<
Bear:  There are wittnesses who said members of the IF were taken to a waiting train.  Of course, these people didn't know where the train was headed.  I assume away from the Whites who were on all the tracks to the east and south and north.  So, the train took them west and probably to Perm where the Bolsheviks Red Army had contol.  And, [this shouldn't be a surprise], it's in Perm where other eye witnesses claim they saw them.

Annie:  >>remember the Princesses of German blood story<<
Bear:  You've asked me this before and I'm sorry I don't know the story

Annie:>> The family were killed in Ekaterinburg<<
Bear:  That is what the Bolsheviks want us to believe and if there was evdience that this did not happen they had 61 years to erase all evidence before the bodies were publicly dug up in 1979.

Annie: >> and buried in the forest.<<
Bear Ans:  Yes, at some point in time nine were buried in Pig's Meadow.

Annie: >> There is no way anyone would take them to another town, shoot them the next day, then dump them in the SAME hole! It is absolutely illogical and ridiculous.<<
Bear:  According to the your speculation, I'd agree.  But according to these eyewitnesses the timeline is different and shows a  lenght of time had passed before they vanished from Perm and their actual execution.  What is illogical is the speculation that if Alexandra and the girls were executed later that the Bolsheviks would have announced this fact.  The Bolsheviks were already caught in a tangle of lies such as did they or didn't they send them away or did they or did they not kill them on the night of 16/17 th of July stories already circulating.

Annie: >>Can you produce proof that all accounts of the family being killed in Ekaterinburg on July 16 are lies?<<
Bear:   I think that is what I'm trying to discover and was hoping for some interesting challenges to the various evidence like the people's testimonies who claim they saw Alexandra and three/four of her daughters in Perm.  And, I do believe this thread is about  the Perm stories.

I was not the one who started this thread, it was sokolova who said she was interested in the "story about the Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina being sent to Perm that was (allegedly) told by AA in later life".

AGRBear

[Denise]

Fact is, Bear, if AA told stories of the IF being in Perm, it is an even bigger reason to doubt them. Honestly, the woman told stories reflecting whatever anyone wanted to hear.  

A am not saying that AA was not believable in her day.  But when you look back over 60 years of claims, it seems that she changed her story to get an in with whoever she was talking to.  With Summers and Mangold, it was the "nobody died but I can't say more" story.  Of course she couldn't say more, she didn't want to make up a story that would contradict the stories of the past 50 years!  

Are there any other sources besides S&M that talk about Perm?  And, if the Perm story were true, which I doubt, where is a single witness claiming to know how the daughters and empress were killed?  As mangled and jumbled as the many accounts may be of the IF murder, they all speak of the same 11 people dying in the cellar that night.  

Denise

[AGRBear]

To whom and when did AA claim this?  

Was this before or after Summers and Mangold talk about it in their book?

Source, please.

AGRBear