Author Topic: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder  (Read 278788 times)

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Offline Tania+

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #750 on: January 22, 2006, 03:41:35 PM »
Thank you Robert, for citing the remembrance of these terrible holocausts. But why also, do most people forget the Armenian Holocaust? Millions were killed, butured. Still today, to substantiate that this holocaust of 1915 ever transpired, it is still being negated. Hard enough to find bodies, but even harder to find justice, let alone compensation in just settling,'facts'! Hitler stated, 'who will remember the Armenians'. Who indeed? Then Hitler commenced the holocaust of the Jews. Did it stop with the Jews, no. As Robert has offered below, holocausts continue to transpire. Man's inhumanity, and total lack of conscience. One wonders what some human hearts are really made of ?

Tatiana


Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?

TatianaA


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #751 on: January 22, 2006, 04:04:39 PM »
The point I was making is just this: mass death  and disturbed gravesites mean body parts [BONES] will go missing! Despite some bizarre obsession with accounting for every last toenail, it happens.
If it is so important to account for every last fragment of a human body to prove a point- have fun at the above mentioned sites. Keep one busy, to say the least.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #752 on: January 22, 2006, 04:08:31 PM »
Quote
On p. 321 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar mentioned an eye witness Natalya Mutnykha, a nurse, who claimed she had seen ex-Empress Alexandra and four daughters, in Perm in the basement where Berezin's rooms were.  

And they said:  "This formal testimony, along with that of other witnesses, says categorically that all the Romanov women were held prisioner by the Bolshviks in Perm late in the summer of 1918 and on into the autumn."

Does anyone have any new evidence that this testimony is false?

AGRBear



Quote
On p. 328 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar go on to say: "Mutnykh's testimony is vastly strenghtened by the discovery that her brother, Vladimir Mutnykh, was indeed, as she claimed, secretary to the Ural Soviets."  And Vladimir was more than this, he was personal aide to Beloborodov, who was the chairman of the Ural Soviets and a man who had been a part of the events which occured in the Ipatiev House.

AGRBear



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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #753 on: January 22, 2006, 04:11:50 PM »
Quote
I had to look up who Alexander Kirsta was and I had forgotten about him and how he was invovled in the investigation.

According to File On the Tsar p. 326 Summers and Mangold tell us that it was Kirsta, the Head of Military Control on 8 March 1919 and on 2 April 1919 takes the testimony of the nurse Mutnykh.   He backed this statement five others who were (1) Ivan Girschfeld, a German, (2) Sibiryev, local postal clerk, (3) Yegeniya Sokolova; (4) Glafyra Malysleva, who had a napkin from the royal family's "stuff",  (5) name unknown, listed as a patient from a local invalid hospital....

Mutnykh's story tells us, also,   she was not alone when she saw Alexandra and three of her daughters.  With her was Anna Kostina, the secretary to  Grigory Zinoviev.  [Note: she said three daughters, not four.]

This testimony,  let me note, again, wasn't until March and then again in April of 1919.  This was some seven and eight months after July 1918.  

Was side tracked on Mutnykh's story.

Back to Kirsta.

On page 323,  Summers and Mangold tell us that Kirsta was part of General Gaida investigation which was not part of Sokolov's.  Gaida was a member of the Ugolovny Rozysk  [CID = Criminal Investigation Division].....  Gaida didn't trust the Whites who quickly declared the Royal Family as being executed and were probably the source who were spreading the "rumors" about the daughters and Tsarina having been raped, etc. etc..   Gaida's collection did not include the White Army investigators collection.

If the Perm witnesses were part of some kind of conspiracy,  I wouldn't know.  Greg indicates this may have been the case.  But,  Gaida wasn't new at investigations.  And,  if you ask my opinion, until I'm given good reason to change my mind,  I think Gaida's data might  be more accurate than the Reds or the Whites about what happen to the Royal Family and the others.

Greg,  what do you have on Gaida and why is his data, in your opinion,  considered as being not as accurate as other investigators?

AGRBear





"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #754 on: January 22, 2006, 09:42:27 PM »
Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?


I think that our thread is not referring to this question.

The Imperial Family massacre is not an holocaust , where people was murdered and tortured by thousands and thousands.

At the Ipatiev house, you had eleven corpses and Reds did the better they could to "hide" them. They buried them in a hurry in order to not to be discovered by the whites. These dead bodies must have been complete, or almost complete. The Bolsheviks claimed that they had burned them "to ashes" but forensic teams discovered that this was another of their continual lies (At least, if you believes, like me, that the remains found in the Pig's Meadow were those of the Romanovs and their retainers).

Another important difference between this issue and the Holocausts ones , is that, when the Reds killed the entire family, they didn't have the political power yet. Hitler HAD the power, Pol-Pot HAD the power and the Turkish who killed the Armenians HAD the power. The had all the time in this world to kill thousands of people and make them dissapear their corpses quite easily. They had other technology too. The Bolsheviks couldn't distroy the Imperial Family corpses by fire in so little time; Hitler had these awful stoves that makes a body became ashes in some hours.

Some month ago, I spoke to a crematorium employé, who said me that you put one hour or two to make a corpse become ashes, but that even like this, you ALWAYS has little bones, cartilages and, of course, teeth. Once a corpse is burned, you MUST absolutely put it into a machine that triturates all this to powder. He also explained me that this is only possible in closed stoves, especials to crematoriums. You CAN'T do it in an open fire. He remebered the ritual cremations in India, where a single corpse could stand for an entire day until it become totally cremated..and of course it's bones remains always complete. They turned to ashes after days and days of fire action. You must accept that you can't end with two corpses so easily as Yurovsky affirmed. Eve using great quantities of acid, this would not have been possible.

We are not surprised for the lack of two three or ten pieces of bones...We are surprised by the lack of two whole corpses at Pig's Meadows.

RealAnastasia.  


Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #755 on: January 22, 2006, 09:55:09 PM »
Quote
On p. 328 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar go on to say: "Mutnykh's testimony is vastly strenghtened by the discovery that her brother, Vladimir Mutnykh, was indeed, as she claimed, secretary to the Ural Soviets."  And Vladimir was more than this, he was personal aide to Beloborodov, who was the chairman of the Ural Soviets and a man who had been a part of the events which occured in the Ipatiev House.
 
AGRBear


The phrase "vastly strengthened" was awarded to the testimony by Summers and Mangold, because the woman had ties to the Bolsheviks, specifically a Bolshevik who was part of the events in the Ipatiev House?

Does this mean that Yurovsky's testimony was "vastly strengthened" by the discovery of the actual, you know, bodies in the actual, you know, grave? I mean, he was a Bolshevik, and he was part of the events at the Ipatiev House. Firsthand, unlike Beloborodov's secretary's sister.

I don't say that Mangold and Summers are laughable. I think they did a credible job of presenting the information that was available in 1976, and their speculations did not seem immoderate to me. In 1976. Before the discovery of the bodies. In a grave. Outside Ekaterinburg. Not Perm.

Incidentally, I followed the threads about the "Perm Story" and discovered that there are some serious quibbles with the Utkin testimony about Anastasia's "survival" after July 1918.

And as I assume you are aware, there has been no serious disputation of the Ipatiev narrative from the Russian scientists. And for the sake of argument: alright, the bodies were first buried somewhere else. By Yurovsky. And later they were dug up and reburied, causing bones to go missing. Not by Yurovsky, who sticks to his original story until his death in 1938 because he doesn't know about the second burial (which luckily mimics the physical description of the first burial, but what the hey.) So the "second" grave is discovered, and some bones are missing. My point is that the existence of the mythical second grave does not invalidate any part of the Yurovsky narrative. Is there anything about the skeletons and their wounds that contradicts the versions of the shooting offered by Yurvsky and other shooters? The skulls of the girls indicate that they were shot from above, once they had collapsed to the floor (unless there was a twelve-foot shooter). Botkin was shot in such a way that he toppled to the floor, and his remains indicate that yes, this is what happened to him. The wounds are disparate and of varying degrees, exactly what might expect from the description of the cellar that night. Does any of this say "Perm"?

Regards,

Simon





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #756 on: January 23, 2006, 11:00:51 AM »
Quote

...[in part]....

...And for the sake of argument: alright, the bodies were first buried somewhere else. By Yurovsky. And later they were dug up and reburied, causing bones to go missing. Not by Yurovsky, who sticks to his original story until his death in 1938 because he doesn't know about the second burial (which luckily mimics the physical description of the first burial, but what the hey.) So the "second" grave is discovered, and some bones are missing. My point is that the existence of the mythical second grave does not invalidate any part of the Yurovsky narrative. Is there anything about the skeletons and their wounds that contradicts the versions of the shooting offered by Yurvsky and other shooters? The skulls of the girls indicate that they were shot from above, once they had collapsed to the floor (unless there was a twelve-foot shooter). Botkin was shot in such a way that he toppled to the floor, and his remains indicate that yes, this is what happened to him. The wounds are disparate and of varying degrees, exactly what might expect from the description of the cellar that night. Does any of this say "Perm"?

Regards,

Simon



Before we go into other questions caused by various posts,  let me make ask the following:

Are you in agreement that it is possible that the one or all nine bodies found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow may not have been buried there on the 17th of July?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #757 on: January 23, 2006, 01:34:31 PM »
Solely for the sake of argument. If you are asking me if I believe it, then no. But if you want to propose a counter-narrative, have at it.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #758 on: January 23, 2006, 02:09:19 PM »
Louis Charles>>
Quote
My point is that the existence of the mythical second grave does not invalidate any part of the Yurovsky narrative.  


Why do you placed  my SPECULATION into   a "mythical second grave" coffin shaped box???

Louis Charles>>
Quote
There is empirical, forensic evidence that supports the accounts of the Ipatiev murders. The correct number of bodies was in the grave. The grave was where he had said it was. There is nothing as credible to support most of the other theories, testimonies etc.


The forensic evidence  tells the experts, who  are the ones who were invovled in the removal of the bones from the mass grave,  there are too many bones missing from the mass grave in Pig's Meadow, therefore, this grave may not have been where all nine were buried on the 17th of July.  These same experts know about the acid, the decay, the possibility of looters and the cable and probably even more than what we know.

Louis Charles>>
Quote
If I infer correctly, you postulate that the women may have been sent to Perm, later shot either there or somewhere else, and their bodies returned to the gravesite, where some of them were able to be placed under the male bodies that had been tossed in earlier?
 
Golly, that's a long way around the barn.


Just because you cannot understand why something occured, such as people taking the long way around the barn,  doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

It is possible, with or without Louis Charles agreement,  that the remains were buried elsewhere and then dug and and placed in the mass grave a year or two later.

AGRBear



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #759 on: January 23, 2006, 02:33:33 PM »
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Louis Charles>>

Why do you placed  my SPECULATION into   a "mythical second grave" coffin shaped box???

And, why are you telling  us that the experts do not understand the various reasons bones were  absent, when they are the ones who were invovled in the removal of the bones from the mass grave?

Just because you cannot understand why something occured, such as people taking the long way around the barn,  doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

It is possible, with or without Louis Charles agreement,  that the remains were buried elsewhere and then dug and and placed in the mass grave a year or two later.

AGRBear





Your "speculation" is unproven. In my post I accepted the existence of the second grave for the sake of argument. Until such time as you can demonstrate that it existed, it is a myth. A myth is a story created to explain a truth in the absence of other methods.  The survivors thread itself deals with the "myth" that there were one or more survivors, based upon the kinds of evidence --- unsupported testimonies and the like --- that we are dealing with on this thread. Once it has been demonstrated that someone DID survive, it will pass from myth to fact. If the word "myth" offends you, (1) I withdraw it, and invite you to substitute the phrase "speculative second grave" in the original post and (2) I also invite you to open a dictionary before you fly off the handle again. At no point, by the way, did I use the words 'coffin-shaped box', and frankly I don't understand your use of them in the response.

The Russian experts identify one of the skeletons as belonging to Anastasia. The Americans identified the same skeleton as that of Maria. One of the teams is correct (or both may be wrong, but they cannot both be correct). Given that they could be wrong in this matter, the Russian reputation for unassailable expertise is questionable. As is the American.  The site was poorly handled, available to non-professionals for excavation, and there was strong criticism levelled at the lack of control during the professional excavation. Note how I refrain from pointing out that you yourself have ignored expert after expert who disagrees with your speculations. Robert Massie would qualify as an expert upon the Romanovs, and he finds the Perm stories preposterous.

It is possible that the Russians made a mistake. And it is possible that I am wrong. Okay? Snippy remarks about how it is "possible to believe something even if Louis_Charles doesn't" are fatuous. How on earth can someone be prevented from believing what they want to on this board?

If people "believe" me, it is because I have posted logical arguments that are based upon evidence. I suggest you do the same. Or don't, it really doesn't matter to me.  I occasionally find your posts interesting enough in the speculations they raise to ask you a question. In the post that provoked this, I accepted the idea that the bodies might have been immured in another grave prior to their ultimate disposition. I asked to hear your speculations in the form of a narrative as to what might have happened. Instead of answering, you go off on a diatribe.

And my question stands. If the remains were dug up and placed in the final grave a year or two later, what does this have to do with Yurovsky's testimony? Do you speculate that he was in charge of the reburial detail?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #760 on: January 23, 2006, 02:50:52 PM »
Oooops,  I guess my remarks sounded "snippy" to you but they were not meant to be.

Sorry. 

No, you didn't mention a coffin shaped box.  I did.

Why wouldn't I accept your opinion?  After your opinion as given,  I am just trying to discover why you came to that opinion, or, atleast,  that was my intent. 

And, yes  the use of the word "speculation"  to me,  sounds better than "myth".

Thanks.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #761 on: January 23, 2006, 02:54:53 PM »
Quote
...[in part]...

And my question stands. If the remains were dug up and placed in the final grave a year or two later, what does this have to do with Yurovsky's testimony? Do you speculate that he was in charge of the reburial detail?


HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm, do you think it possibe that Yurovsky could have been in charge of the reburial?

AGRBear




"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #762 on: January 23, 2006, 03:19:49 PM »
No, for a short answer.

Since you haven't answered my question, I will construct an alternative narrative.

On the night of July 16, the servants, the Tsar and Alexei were shot in the basement. The bodies were taken to a grave and buried, somewhere outside of Ekaterinburg. Yurovsky supervised the burial detail. Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.

The women were taken to Perm and held for an indeterminate amount of time. Anastasia broke free, but was recaptured. The women are executed, either in Perm or they are taken back to Ekaterinburg (unlikely as long as it was in the hands of the Whites, of course). Anastasia was either executed apart from everyone else and buried separately, or she escaped again and vanished (since the DNA has demonstrated that she could not have been Anna Andersen).

They too are buried, but not in the same grave as the Tsar and the servants. At a certain point, late enough in the day that the bodies have become disarticulated, the skeletal remains are gathered from each grave and taken to the Pig's Meadow site, where they are re-buried in a gravesite that matches the description of the earlier grave. Yurovsky supervises this as well. I have no idea where Yurovsky was several years after the shootings, so perhaps he was in Ekaterinburg. He has a detail to assist him in this, of course, and there would have to be someone present who knew where the bodies of the Empress and three Grand Duchesses were. Some of the women were clearly thrown into the grave before, say, Botkin, if you judge by their placement. This is why I postulate the existence of a previous grave for each group, and their simultaneous transfer into the grave that was ultimately excavated. It is during the transfer of the bodies from the other two graves that bones are lost. Oddly, many of the lost bones were from the victims' feet.

All of the soldiers involved in these actions --- the original shootings, the female shootings, the escape/shooting of Anastasia, the three graves, the guard detail of the Ipatiev House --- all of them maintain their silence. Yurovsky, of course, has the most to cover up, since he was involved in all of these actions (even with the Perm story, he would had to have known).

I would be interested in critiques of the logical structure of this analysis as a statement of what happened, as in, if this does not make sense, could someone explain why? I have tried to account for missing bones, and the two missing bodies. I assume that the body in the grave is Maria. I have tried to construct a narrative with an open mind.

By the same token, if this narrative does make sense, could someone explain why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline ConstanceMarie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #763 on: January 23, 2006, 06:15:27 PM »
I don't think it does make sense. Why would they bother to take the bodies back to the same hole? Wouldn't it have been better for them to hide them by separating them? It would also be hard to find the same spot again, remember the truck got stuck so it was not an easy place to get to. With the Whites approaching it wasn't realistic that they'd return to the scene of the crime. I think the fact that they were all found together means they were all shot together.

Offline etonexile

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #764 on: January 23, 2006, 06:31:57 PM »
Quote
I don't think it does make sense. Why would they bother to take the bodies back to the same hole? Wouldn't it have been better for them to hide them by separating them? It would also be hard to find the same spot again, remember the truck got stuck so it was not an easy place to get to. With the Whites approaching it wasn't realistic that they'd return to the scene of the crime. I think the fact that they were all found together means they were all shot together.


Some folk just insist on being logical.....tsk.... ::)