Author Topic: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder  (Read 278780 times)

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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #765 on: January 24, 2006, 11:19:35 AM »
Quote
Since most of you believe Yurovsky's and the other exectioner's testimonies, then you know the count.  Nine bodies in the mass grave.  Two bodies were buried near the mass grave.  Eleven people.


There are 206 bones found in the human body.  There were nine people buried in the mass grave.  This would have made 1854 bones which should have been found if all were there to find.  Instead they found just 500 [some just fragments] bones.  This means there are 1354 bones/ fragments of certain bones still  missing.  Some of those were destroyed with acid and age.

This count does not include the two missing, Anastasia or Maria and Alexei, which would have been 412 bones in addition.

The Russian scientists and  I do not understand why so many bones are missing from the mass grave.

AGRBear



No one questioned these facts, Bear.  We were trying to explain what the problems are with mass graves and accountability.  

And while this execution was not even in the same stratosphere as the Holocaust et al. it is similiar in that when you have more than two or three bodies and a critical need to dispose of them mistakes are practically inevitable.  Especially when there are so many victims in similiar age groups with similar features.  Corpses get places in the wrong category, things fall or get chopped off when they shouldn't have, the wrong people end up on a bonfire and doused in acid.  It's like in your average every day murder, it's hard enough to get away with one but you start knocking off multiple people or a household and you might as well march your behind right down to the police station because of all the mistakes you made and all the clues you left behind.  

And since Louis_Charles brought up the fact about many of the missing bones being from the victims' feet, does any know of any reliable account in which the victims were dismembered (for ease of burning, burial, retribution, etc.)?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarina_Liz »
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Lemur

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #766 on: January 24, 2006, 12:07:51 PM »
Quote


And since Louis_Charles brought up the fact about many of the missing bones being from the victims' feet, does any know of any reliable account in which the victims were dismembered (for ease of burning, burial, retribution, etc.)?  


The book Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert Massie mentions this happening. Other accounts apparently discount it but we don't really know since so much time had passed. I feel it likely the toe and foot bones rotted away in the soil over time. It was a lot of time.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #767 on: January 24, 2006, 12:23:04 PM »
According to one of AGR's own posts "...it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process...", meaning during the excavation and examination of the bones. This could have been true for many of the bones in the grave prior to excavation - they may have just disintegrated into the surrounding soil. Remember that sulfuric acid was poured into the grave by the bucket - that could certainly do it!  

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #768 on: January 24, 2006, 02:00:02 PM »
Blasphemers!  Logic has no place on this board!  

;D

I think that there are logical explanations as to the fate of bones.  Disintegration, grave robbing, poor excevation practices all seem likely reasons why many bones are missing and not some wild story about multiple graves and a desperate dash to Perm.
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Lemur

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #769 on: January 24, 2006, 02:27:56 PM »
On the street I grew up on, there had been an old plantation house at the end of the street and there was a family graveyard on the land. Sadly, this graveyard was dug up and the bodies moved so more houses could be built there. We kids stood around and watched. They said few of the skeletons were complete, after all those years most of the boxes had rotted through and the bones had become one with the ground. There were many missing bones, including one skull which was never found. :(

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #770 on: January 25, 2006, 11:35:48 AM »
I am not sure I'm the right poster to answer all of these questions.  What we need to someone knowledgeable in forensic science who deals with graves like the one in Pig's Meadow.

Let me remind you,  I am not the one giving us information that there were too many bones missing from the mass grave.  It was the experts who were presents as the remains of the nine were being removed.

One of them drew the sketch which has been shown here on this forum.  It shows the position of the bones and it tells us the bones visible to the artist/scientist.

Let me go find my colorized version.

AGRBear
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #771 on: January 25, 2006, 11:40:37 AM »
Quote


Diagram of the position of the skeletons in the mass grave.

You can see how one body was placed on top of another....

I colorzied the bones, however, I'm not sure if I put the correct colors on the right bones.  

If you see anything I need to change or add colors to the bones not yet colorized, please,  let me know.  

On the leg bone of #3 is something that looks like part of a skull.  Does that belong to #8??

1. Anna S. Demidova
2. Dr. Botkin
3. GD Olga
4.  Nicholas II
5. GD Marie/Anastasia
6. GD Tatiana
7. Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexsi Trupp

I promised I'd do this on one of these threads but forgotten which one so I placed it here.

AGRBear

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Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #772 on: January 25, 2006, 11:43:54 AM »
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Starting on p. 403 Penny and Greg tell us about the postion of the bodies in the grave.
 
Penny had earlier written about this in one of her posts.  I can't find it and it may have been one of posts she omited.
 
Anyway,  let's start with the body that they think was the first one placed in the grave.
 
Using the colorized diagram above.
 
I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters
 
 
 
AGRBear

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Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #773 on: January 25, 2006, 11:54:40 AM »
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...[in part]....

As a point of information, one of the main reasons that bones "go missing" is often because bodies are moved or (as in neolithic burial practices) the bodies are exposed and then the bones collected & buried later.  This means that smaller bones such as fingers & toes tend to drop off at the original site & get overlooked in the move.  I know all about this as my wife is doing a course on prehistoric ritual practices & I hear about it regularly.

...

Phil Tomaselli

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #774 on: January 25, 2006, 11:58:37 AM »
It is the experts who claim there were too many bones missing.  I am just he messenger.

Louis Charles asked some interesting questions in his scenario.
I will have to reply directly but I don't think I will have the time today.

AGRBear
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #775 on: January 25, 2006, 12:01:39 PM »
Neolithic burial practices aside, you have maintained that the Russian experts account for the missing bones by having the bodies moved into the Pig's Meadow Grave from another burial site --- assuming that they weren't left to disarticulate in the open air.

Did they offer any other possibility, such as animal removal, sulphuric acid, etc?

Do you see any problems with the speculative narrative I constructed?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #776 on: January 25, 2006, 07:48:54 PM »
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It is the experts who claim there were too many bones missing.  I am just he messenger.

Louis Charles asked some interesting questions in his scenario.
I will have to reply directly but I don't think I will have the time today.

AGRBear


I didn't really ask any questions in the scenario. I postulated a series of events that make logical sense, if you accept the fact that the Pig's Meadow grave is the second burial site for the remains.

Assuming that the relative depths indicate an order in which the bodies were placed, then any separated Romaovs --- i.e. the girls and their mother --- were added to the grave at the same time as people like Demidova, who presumably died earlier.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #777 on: January 26, 2006, 06:24:56 PM »
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Neolithic burial practices aside, you have maintained that the Russian experts account for the missing bones by having the bodies moved into the Pig's Meadow Grave from another burial site --- assuming that they weren't left to disarticulate in the open air.

Did they offer any other possibility, such as animal removal, sulphuric acid, etc?

Do you see any problems with the speculative narrative I constructed?


Yes, the experts took into accourt the variety of reasons the bones might be missing such as the sulphuric acid,  animals,  the digging of the cable, etc..

The speculative narrative is to what I was referring that I needed a little time to reread, ponder and then find a clump of time to answer.  I've just had  a few minutes here and there....

Gotta run.

Maybe tomorrow I can discuss your speculative narrative.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #778 on: January 27, 2006, 06:16:04 PM »
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No, for a short answer.

Since you haven't answered my question, I will construct an alternative narrative.

On the night of July 16, the servants, the Tsar and Alexei were shot in the basement. The bodies were taken to a grave and buried, somewhere outside of Ekaterinburg. Yurovsky supervised the burial detail. Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.

The women were taken to Perm and held for an indeterminate amount of time. Anastasia broke free, but was recaptured. The women are executed, either in Perm or they are taken back to Ekaterinburg (unlikely as long as it was in the hands of the Whites, of course). Anastasia was either executed apart from everyone else and buried separately, or she escaped again and vanished (since the DNA has demonstrated that she could not have been Anna Andersen).

They too are buried, but not in the same grave as the Tsar and the servants. At a certain point, late enough in the day that the bodies have become disarticulated, the skeletal remains are gathered from each grave and taken to the Pig's Meadow site, where they are re-buried in a gravesite that matches the description of the earlier grave. Yurovsky supervises this as well. I have no idea where Yurovsky was several years after the shootings, so perhaps he was in Ekaterinburg. He has a detail to assist him in this, of course, and there would have to be someone present who knew where the bodies of the Empress and three Grand Duchesses were. Some of the women were clearly thrown into the grave before, say, Botkin, if you judge by their placement. This is why I postulate the existence of a previous grave for each group, and their simultaneous transfer into the grave that was ultimately excavated. It is during the transfer of the bodies from the other two graves that bones are lost. Oddly, many of the lost bones were from the victims' feet.

All of the soldiers involved in these actions --- the original shootings, the female shootings, the escape/shooting of Anastasia, the three graves, the guard detail of the Ipatiev House --- all of them maintain their silence. Yurovsky, of course, has the most to cover up, since he was involved in all of these actions (even with the Perm story, he would had to have known).

I would be interested in critiques of the logical structure of this analysis as a statement of what happened, as in, if this does not make sense, could someone explain why? I have tried to account for missing bones, and the two missing bodies. I assume that the body in the grave is Maria. I have tried to construct a narrative with an open mind.

By the same token, if this narrative does make sense, could someone explain why?


Let's take this one step at a time so Bear  doesn't get confused.

Louis Charles:
1.
>>
Quote
On the night of July 16, the servants, the Tsar and Alexei were shot in the basement.


Bear:  Yes this is possible.  I assume the ex-Tsar Nicholas II who was the most important political threat to the Reds would have been shot first.

Nicholas II seemed to be the first to have been placed in the mass grave.

I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface  
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface  
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface


It is possible that the three men were shot in the basement.

Trupp was buried on top of Nicholas II then Kharitonov was the third  one placed in the grave in Pig's Meadow.

AGRBear





Quote
The bodies were taken to a grave and buried, somewhere outside of Ekaterinburg. Yurovsky supervised the burial detail. Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.<<


---
Order of placement list:
I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface  
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface  
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface  
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface  
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.  
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters  
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters  


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #779 on: January 27, 2006, 06:44:46 PM »
Louis Charles:

2.
..
Quote
Yurovsky supervised the burial detail.


Yes,  I think he was supervising all the burials.

And,  I think he has chosen by Lenin.  But that is for another discussion.

3.
Quote
Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.


Yurovsky and others claimed he was killed in the basement.

Yurovsky  claimed Alexei's body was burned and buried near the mass grave.

Was it possible.  Yes.

Is this what I think what happen?

I'm still pondering.....

Why don't I know?

Alexei's remains have not been found.

What do I speculate?  I'll just talk about the Perm angle.

Testimony of Perm residence and others.

Three kinds of  evidence pops out at me in the various testimonies.

There are a number of  people who claim that they were on various trains during that time period which was stopped and searched by Reds looking for Alexei.

I believe one of the eye witnesses had to talk quickly and with great emotion to the soldier who thought this man's son looked like Alexei.  The soldier already had the man's son by the arm and wanted to take him.... [ It was something like that.  No book near me to check but that was the jest of it,  I believe.]

Another was a man in charge of the Red Cross who not only talked about the train he was on being searched for Alexei,  he, also, left a letter written to one of his children,  I believe it, was, telling them about the search.

Another testimony talks about seeing Alexei and G D Anatasia with men dressed as Red soliders getting into a carriage in the woods near Perm.

Did these people know each other?  I don't think they did.

Do I think these were stories planted by the CHEKA or Ural Soviets?   The people on the trains and the Red Cross executive were not fabricating evidence.

Do I think the CHEKA or the Ural Soviets sent soldiers to pretend they were looking for Alexei?  That doesn't seem probable.

Could Alexei survived blows and wounds if injuried during the execution attempt or flight,  I doubt he would have lived for very long if he had.

About the only thing I can say for sure at this time is:  Alexei's body is missing.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152