Author Topic: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder  (Read 278781 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #780 on: January 27, 2006, 07:08:19 PM »
Louis Charles
4.
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The women were taken to Perm and held for an indeterminate amount of time.


Possible.

5.
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Anastasia broke free, but was recaptured.


Possible

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The women are executed, either in Perm or they are taken back to Ekaterinburg (unlikely as long as it was in the hands of the Whites, of course).


It appears they may have waited until after the White had left Ekaterinburg before killing the women,  Alexandera,  three daughters and maybe Demidova.  Since Yurovsky may not have yet returned to Ekateinburg,  they may have been buried elsewhere then reburied by Yurovsky later.

If I remember correctly, Yurovsky had gone to Moscow on the 19th or 20th.   Whites took the area.   A year later the Reds retook Ekaterinburg.  Yurovsky was to return to Ekaterinburg and ended up in a position which took him back into the Ipatiev House which was being used by the local govt.,  I believe.  But don't have dates so will return with this data when I can.

Mass grave tells us:
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface  
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.  
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters  
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters  

Botkin's remains seem to have been placed in the grave before the women.

6.
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Anastasia was either executed apart from everyone else and buried separately, or she escaped again and vanished (since the DNA has demonstrated that she could not have been Anna Andersen).


One of Nicholas II's daughters remains were not found in the mass grave.  One of them  is missing.  So, the scenario you presented is possible.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #781 on: January 28, 2006, 12:36:06 AM »
Bear seems to have ignored what I consider the salient question about my construct, and what renders it ultimately unacceptable to me. That would be the logistics of the mythical (sorry, speculative) "re-burial". I think the willingness to accept every shred of rumor as hard evidence that the event discussed might be the solution speaks volumes about the ability as a historian.
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Offline Grand_Duke_Paul

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #782 on: January 28, 2006, 09:31:52 AM »
Quote
Bear seems to have ignored what I consider the salient question about my construct, and what renders it ultimately unacceptable to me. That would be the logistics of the mythical (sorry, speculative) "re-burial". I think the willingness to accept every shred of rumor as hard evidence that the event discussed might be the solution speaks volumes about the ability as a historian.


In Bear's defense I think her interest is in exploring all aspects of this case, that is admirable.  However I personally think that the entire Perm story is misinformation.  Clearly the grave in pigs meadow is that of the Imperial Family.
“I have always had the courage for the new things that life sometimes offers...”
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #783 on: January 28, 2006, 10:06:51 AM »
For the record, I am not criticizing her desire to explore every angle of the case. As I said in a previous post, her speculations are occasionally provocative.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #784 on: January 28, 2006, 10:12:56 AM »
Quote

  However I personally think that the entire Perm story is misinformation.  Clearly the grave in pigs meadow is that of the Imperial Family.



Yes, I think so too. But if it were true, it would throw a monkey wrench into AA's tale, wouldn't it? ;)


Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #785 on: January 28, 2006, 10:19:02 AM »
The grave by itself does not throw a monkey-wrench into Andersen's tale. After all, Anastasia's body is missing.

This thread is not about Anna Andersen, whose story played no direct role in the Perm allegations.

Since we are all understandably sensitive about the threads in this section degenerating into sniper attacks, I think it would be a good idea to try and stay as on-topic as possible.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #786 on: January 28, 2006, 10:24:19 AM »
Since AA is the main topic of discussion around here, I don't think it's wrong to point out that the Perm story would render her story impossible, because it showed AN alive with other family members. No Ekaterinburg massacre, no Alexander T. and his pushcart. However, we know that the Perm stories were not true. The grave itself did have 2 missing bodies, and the massacre did take place in the Ipatiev house as history tells us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #787 on: January 28, 2006, 10:53:04 AM »
Quote
Bear seems to have ignored what I consider the salient question about my construct, and what renders it ultimately unacceptable to me. That would be the logistics of the mythical (sorry, speculative) "re-burial". I think the willingness to accept every shred of rumor as hard evidence that the event discussed might be the solution speaks volumes about the ability as a historian.


The "re-burial" has been speculated because of the missing bones which, according to some experts, suggest that the bodies were buried elsewhere and then placed into the mass grave.

I'll go get one of the diagram which shows the missing bones.

Quote
The parts in black are the bones missing according to Kleir and Mingay:



They are listed as:

1. Anna Demidova    2. Evgeny Botkin  3. GD Olga Nikolaevna


AGRBear


You can follow the thread and find the other diagrams for the other victims found.

When it was asked if these bones in the hands and feet would have decayed first since the bones are smaller,  the answer was that  some of these bones would have decayed and some would not.  The difficulty is that ALL of these bones are missing in fragment or in part from the mass grave.

Before you can accept the specualtion of a reburiel,  one has to understand what is in and what is missing from the mass grave.
What is missing are too many bones.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #788 on: January 28, 2006, 11:16:17 AM »
Quote

In Bear's defense I think her interest is in exploring all aspects of this case, that is admirable.  However I personally think that the entire Perm story is misinformation.  Clearly the grave in pigs meadow is that of the Imperial Family.


I have not said that the bones found in the mass grave didn't belong to those whom Dr. Gill and the others claim them to be.  My speculation is that the mass grave may not have been the third intended grave but maybe the fourth.

First being the Four Brothers Mine.

The second was partly dug and left.

The third is said to have been the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

The grave of the missing two is unknown but Yurovsky claimed it was near the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Yes, the CHEKA, Ural and Moscow Soviets, GPU and later the KGB and communists were/are very good in fabricating stories.  

As I have explained,  good liers always keep as close to the truth as they can because it's more difficult to tell where the truth ends and the lies begin.

If the bodies were buried elsewhere and not in the mass grave on the 17th,  then we have too look elsewhere for answers.

Perms seems to have been a hot spot for such stories.  Are some of them fabricated?  Probably.  Are some of them the truth?  I don't know.

Would Yurovsky lie?  Yes.

Would Ermakov lie?  Yes.

Would other revolutionaries lie?  Yes.

Are all revolutionaries and Bolsheviks liers.  No.

I think it is important too open up to all the testimony be it from Perm AND elsewhere.

Sokolov was said to have eliminated the Perm testimonies.  I don't have his book.  Hopefully my copy is in the mail.  So I'll comment with more authority on his stuff later.  Anyway,  I"m told he did NOT place any weight on these testimonies.  This may have proven to be a political move/demand of White's Gen. Diterikhs.    I think there were about or more than 40 testimonies.   But the earlier investigators did follow some of these leads.  Some of this testimony has been lost or are in some old archives waiting to be found, unless they were destoryed like so much of this information has been through the years.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline horace

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #789 on: May 21, 2006, 06:15:14 PM »
yes
yes

Offline Sasta33

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #790 on: May 22, 2006, 10:30:28 AM »
1) Yes
2) Probably not


I guess we'll never really know. That's what makes it frustrating.



Offline Dctalk3185

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #791 on: May 22, 2006, 01:24:04 PM »
absolutely, positively, 1000% no to both

which is very tragic… :'(

Nick


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Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #792 on: May 24, 2006, 04:16:21 AM »
No, absolutely not, to both.

Offline aussiechick12

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #793 on: May 24, 2006, 04:47:55 AM »

- No

- No
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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #794 on: May 24, 2006, 05:37:15 PM »
No.

No.