Author Topic: queen anne and king george 1st  (Read 40568 times)

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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2007, 10:05:43 AM »
Yes, that is unfair. I think that's the popular image of him in some ways though. I agree, it seems everyone, George and Anne, and maybe others were under the thumb of the Churchills. They were very prominent in English history of that time.This was more than likely because George was not an assertive personality, and Anne seems to have been somewhat easily influenced.

Modena1

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2007, 09:36:59 PM »
Actually, if you include stillbirths and miscarriages, Anne had 17 or 18 pregnancies. George of Hanover was never a serious candidate for the succesion until the death of the Duke of Gloucester and the passing of the Act of Settlement, which bypassed not only Anne's brother James Edward and his sister Louise Marie, but also many Catholic branches of the family, for example Anne's first cousin, Duchess Anne-Marie of Savoy, the daughter of Minette and the Duc d'Orleans. At the time of Anne's death, Anne-Marie was her nearest surviving female relative, and since Anne had spent some time with Anne-Marie and her sister as a child in France, she left all her jewels to Anne-Marie. George I did not honour the bequest. Not entirely relevant to the topic but interesting nonetheless!

This is something to chew on:

Anne-Marie's grandson was King Louis XV..........yes, he was the son of her daughter, and I think her sons had descendants, but STILL, didn't the French Kings from Louis XV on have more right to the english throne than the Hanovers? Yes, I know all about the "Act of Settlement" (unfair and immoral to screw up the succession IMO) but think about it............

bell_the_cat

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2007, 01:33:26 AM »
I'm sure that, even had Louis XV been first in the line of succession, that the rules would have been changed to prevent the French King becoming King of England, Scotland and Ireland, however unfair and immoral you think that might be!

ilyala

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2007, 06:43:04 AM »
indeed. after all if you look at it, louis 5th  had more right to the spanish throne than his uncle, who became king of spain. but the reason philip 5th was chosen to be king of spain was exactly the fact that no-one would have accepted louis as king of both countries. 

when louis was ill as a child, his closest heir was his uncle, who was king of spain. after that i believe the line went back to the orleans family - but people assumed that philip 5th of spain would not accept that and many feared civil war.

bell_the_cat

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2007, 05:21:35 PM »
Exactly! ;)

palatine

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2007, 08:04:13 PM »
indeed. after all if you look at it, louis 5th  had more right to the spanish throne than his uncle, who became king of spain. but the reason philip 5th was chosen to be king of spain was exactly the fact that no-one would have accepted louis as king of both countries. 

when louis was ill as a child, his closest heir was his uncle, who was king of spain. after that i believe the line went back to the orleans family - but people assumed that philip 5th of spain would not accept that and many feared civil war.

Philip, Duc d'Anjou, was chosen to be King of Spain because he was a younger son who seemed to have little, if any, chance of inheriting the French throne: Louis XIV understood very well that no one would allow France and Spain to be ruled by the same person.  After Philip (V) reluctantly left for Spain, there was a series of deaths in the French royal family.  Philip had already renounced his succession rights to the French throne (and the succession rights of his descendants) in a family compact; he deeply regretted what he'd done as the death toll in the French royal family mounted.  His renunciation was repeated in peace treaties that were hammered out at the end of the War of the Spanish Succession.  As a result, the French succession worked as follows:

Louis XV
Orleans branch
Conde branch
Conti branch
Duc de Maine
Comte de Toulouse

Maine and Toulouse were stripped of their succession rights soon after Philippe II d’Orleans became Regent, but that did not provide much solace for Philip’s greedy and homesick heart.  Philip was eager to make himself Regent at the very least, but Philippe handily smacked down his efforts in that direction.  If Louis XV had died and Philip had been dumb enough to make a play for the French throne (and I believe that he was indeed dumb enough to do so), there would have been a war and he would have lost.  The peace treaties that ended the W.O.T.S.S. mandated that the thrones of France and Spain must remain separate and bound everyone to see that this mandate was respected.  More importantly, there was something for everyone (but Philip) to gain from a war over the French succession, i.e. capturing and divvying up the Spanish Netherlands, etc.   Philip would have found himself squaring off against Philippe, the Houses of Conde and Conti, George I of Great Britain, Emperor Charles VI, the Holy Roman Empire, the Dutch, Sweden, Denmark, and the Italian rulers.  Philip would have never been able to succeed against such a concentration of power.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 08:29:17 PM by palatine »

palatine

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2007, 08:28:09 PM »

This is something to chew on:

Anne-Marie's grandson was King Louis XV..........yes, he was the son of her daughter, and I think her sons had descendants, but STILL, didn't the French Kings from Louis XV on have more right to the english throne than the Hanovers? Yes, I know all about the "Act of Settlement" (unfair and immoral to screw up the succession IMO) but think about it............

A lot of people had a better right to the British throne than the Hanoverians did per the laws of hereditary succession.  However, Parliament had the might and thus the right to limit the succession to Protestant candidates, which meant that the House of Hanover was the only game in town.  From 1688 - 1700, the Catholic claimants had the chance to play ball with Parliament by becoming Protestant and agreeing to respect the changes put in place by William, Mary and Anne i.e. the Bill of Rights.  No one wanted to play ball, so the Hanoverians got the throne.

Anne-Marie was the only Catholic claimant to formally protest the Hanoverian succession to Parliament.  The rest of the claimants refused to press their claims, almost certainly out of deference to James III/the Old Pretender.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 08:40:07 PM by palatine »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2007, 10:13:58 AM »
Anne-Marie protested? That's quite interesting Palatine! Where did you read it? I think it's quite endearing that Anne remembered her as her closest female relative with whom she'd shared a nursery years before in St Cloud. How downright mean of George I not to honour the bequest.  >:(
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

bell_the_cat

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2007, 05:15:39 PM »
When Lady Mary Wortley Montagu returned from Constantinople in 1719, she was presented to Anne Marie who was then Queen of Sicily (shortly to be changed to Sardinia). The Queen made an obvious point of reminding Lady Mary of her English connections.......  :)

Duke of New Jersey

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2007, 08:48:29 AM »
Anne actually offered the throne to her brother before she died if he agreeed to become Anglican, he wouldn't agree so the Hanoverians it was. 

Also, could somebody elaborate on the letter Anne wrote to James II.  I find that very interesting.

-Duke of NJ

Offline trentk80

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2007, 09:28:50 AM »
Anne-Marie protested? That's quite interesting Palatine! Where did you read it?

The document is found in The Jacobite Heritage website:

Protest of the Duchess of Savoy against the "Act of Settlement", 1701
http://www.jacobite.ca/documents/1701savoy.htm
« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 09:38:39 AM by trentk80 »
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Duke of New Jersey

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2007, 10:33:35 AM »
That is an interesting website. 

I love how the "upspurers of the throne are shown in italics." ;D

-Duke of NJ

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2007, 12:42:56 PM »
Anne actually offered the throne to her brother before she died if he agreeed to become Anglican, he wouldn't agree so the Hanoverians it was. 

Also, could somebody elaborate on the letter Anne wrote to James II.  I find that very interesting.

-Duke of NJ

She did write a letter, and it's talked about in this book about Queen Anne and her sister Mary II, called Ungrateful Daughters, which is about both their lives, but the title comes from the fact they could be said to be Ungrateful Daughters to James II. This book discusses the letter she wrote him, ( her father), and concludes it wasn't sincere, I believe, and that not much she wrote him was sincere. You don't get a very good impression of how she was in that book, in my view. It doesn't paint a real great picture of her. I don't remember the specifics ( I read too many books!!!), but I do know that it is  discussed there, and it is concluded that it was not sincere. Have you ever heard of that book, and to anyone else, what are your thoughts on it? I certainly learned much from it, and it quotes quite a bit from the letters of Anne and Mary.

Duke of New Jersey

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2007, 04:35:59 PM »
I don't know why but I have always pitied Anne and George (and to a lesser extent William and Mary) for some reason.  It just seems that they were sad

Anne-No children, many pregnancies, no family in the end, no friends in the end, taken advanatge of by many
George-Boring, dull
William-Huge responsibility (as Protestant leader from birth), lifelong struggles (aganist Louis XIV), no father, mother died when 10
Mary-No children, hated by father

-Duke of NJ

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: queen anne and king george 1st
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2007, 04:30:51 PM »
I don't know why but I have always pitied Anne and George (and to a lesser extent William and Mary) for some reason.  It just seems that they were sad

Anne-No children, many pregnancies, no family in the end, no friends in the end, taken advanatge of by many
George-Boring, dull

Boring, but not neccessarily worthy of pity because of it! ;) In my opinion, anyway.

Quote
William-Huge responsibility (as Protestant leader from birth), lifelong struggles (aganist Louis XIV), no father, mother died when 10
Mary-No children, hated by father

-Duke of NJ

Only hated by him after he'd felt betrayed by her - don't get me wrong, Mary II is one of my favourite Stuarts, but her father certainly had reason to not feel warmly towards her.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."